Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

[John Woodgate]

Well, strictly, an electric shock incident would be a 'two-fault' 
situation - plug reversed AND conducting object inserted into the live 
socket. In general, two-fault situations are almost impossible to avoid 
but luckily also occur very rarely.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-07-17 10:58, Scott Xe wrote:
Hi Pete,

Thanks for your view!  Firstly I dare to say it is not a new issue 
since I have read some reviews with this concern in the past plus a 
quick search of products available on the market showing some models 
in exist.  I do believe the standard committee and manufacturers are 
well aware of it.  It must have a reason to be tolerated or in a lower 
priority. This forum has lots of expert and senior and looking for 
their enlightenment or common alignment.

Regards,

Scott


On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 01:26, Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com 
<mailto:peperkin...@cs.com>> wrote:

    Scott,

                    In watching this thread it is clear that the
    technical assessment and the regulatory certification are two
    separate issues but linked by local law so we need to be cognizant
    of the regulatory environment.

                    The technical assessment (per the standard) is
    organized by an ongoing group of (fallible) folks who work very
    hard to cover all of the risks (usually) from the product
    manufacturers point of view (since they seem to dominate the
    technical committees).  Since the requirements are usually written
    in retrospect from experience and, usually, not organized in a top
    down approach (using the usual risk assessment tools – FMEA, etc)
    it is incomplete is some (usually) unexpected ways – as you have
    discovered.  When exposed, the standards committee then scrambles
    to fill the hole identified.  This is a never ending process,
    approaching perfection asymptotically.

    All this ignores the clever manufacturer who seeks out these holes
    and makes use of them to gain advantage in some way.

                    The regulatory certification reflects the level of
    development of the National bureaucracy responsible for setting
    requirements.  Additionally, the lobbying of legislators and
    bureaucrats by special interest groups affects the final rules
    applied.  So it ends up being a patchwork of requirements that
    need to be applied by the manufacturer.

    John Woodgate assures us that the world is happy with the UK
    approvals; check it out carefully.  Oh yes, a question – does Hong
    Kong or Singapore still use the British plug design?  What
    residual of this usage is still left in the world?

                    All of this is the reason that you and I (and most
    of the others on this net) have a meaningful job – once we get a
    little experience and are willing to put up with the uncertainty
    regarding the roles of requirements along with the varied level of
    enforcement by the legal jurisdictions.

                    You are uncomfortable with this hole in the
    requirements. When we feel that the requirements or the
    application of requirements is either too strict or too slack our
    only recourse is to get (directly or indirectly) involved in
    fixing things (in which managers and technical folks excel) by
    joining a technical committee or lobbying the political process
    that needs fixing.

                    My advice is: pick your fights carefully and
    pursue them with all you have – personal and corporate.  You may
    even be successful in some of the efforts.

                    So much philosophizing; good luck in fixing the
    world.

    :>)     br,      Pete

    Peter E Perkins, PE

    Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

    PO Box 23427

    Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

    503/452-1201

    IEEE Life Fellow

    p.perk...@ieee.org <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

    *From:* Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com <mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
    *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 9:48 AM
    *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
    *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

    Dear Johns,

    Thanks for advice abt other countries using 13A plugs & sockets! 
    Do they require specific approved bodies for issuing certification
    like UK?

    Regards,

    Scott

    *From: *John Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
    <mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>>
    *Reply-To: *John Allen <john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk
    <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>>
    *Date: *Monday, 16 July 2018 at 3:45 PM
    *To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
    *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

    Also used in Malta and Cyprus (even in “Turkish” Northern Cyprus
    IIRC!) – and then there is Gibraltar.

    John E Allen

    W. London, UK

    *From:*John Mcauley [mailto:john.mcau...@cei.ie]
    *Sent:* 16 July 2018 01:03
    *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
    *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

    Hi Scott

    Ireland uses the same plug as the UK as per I.S. 401:1997 - Safety
    Requirements For Rewireable And Non-rewireable 13A Fused Plugs.

    IS 401 is the equivalent of BS 1363.

    Interesting issue about plugs being able to be inserted upside
    down in some extension sockets.

    John McAuley

    *From:*Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com <mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
    *Sent:* 15 July 2018 23:32
    *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
    *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

    Thank you for the clarification.

    On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, 12:47 am John Woodgate, <j...@woodjohn.uk
    <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote:

        GPS applies to anything; that's why is called 'General...'.
        Anything can fall within more than one Directive, in fact all
        electrical products fall within both LVD and EMCD, as well as
        GPSD.

        BS 136X connectors are used outside the UK; the EU is not
        relevant to that.

        John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

        J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
        <http://www.woodjohn.uk>

        Rayleigh, Essex UK

        On 2018-07-15 17:33, Scott Xe wrote:

            The product is for UK market only since 13A rectangular
            pins.  I believe only UK uses this type of plug within
            EU.  As far as I remember, a couple of such product
            reviews raised this concern in the past but I did not know
            the BS standard does not prohibit it.  I am uncomfortable
            with such design if it meets the standard.

            According to LVD guidance, this type of product falls into
            LVD, not GPS.  John, how does this product relate to GPS?

            Thanks and regards,

            Scott

            *From: *John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk>
            <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>
            *Date: *Sunday, 15 July 2018 at 10:53 PM
            *To: *Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com>
            <mailto:scott...@gmail.com>, <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
            <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
            *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening

            I believe that no-one thought of the possibility of a
            design that allowed that incorrect insertion. It is known
            to the responsible BSI committee, but of course it takes
            time for the standard to be amended. Until it is,
            conformity to the existing standard cannot be denied.
            However, the marketing of such a device might violate the
            GPS Directive in Europe, although that is not certain
            because unshuttered sockets are legal in some EU/EFTA
            countries. Since it  only affects those countries that use
            the BS136X system,  the appropriate regulatory action may
            be problematical.

            John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

            J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
            <http://www.woodjohn.uk>

            Rayleigh, Essex UK

            On 2018-07-15 14:52, Scott Xe wrote:

                    I received a sample of portable extension sockets
                    with a compliance certificate of BS 1363-2.  It is
                    noted the slim enclosure design allows the mains
                    plugs to be inserted into the sockets up-side-down
                    by mistake. In such circumstance, only the earth
                    pin is inserted and the plug opens the shutter of
                    L and N terminals posting the risk to access the L
                    and N terminals with a test pin.  It is a
                    foreseeable misuse but seems no breach of the
                    safety standard.  Can someone share why it can be
                    tolerated by the standard?

                    Thanks and regards,

                    Scott

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