Thanks everyone for your feedback and help. Greatly appreciated. Perhaps someday AdCo, RAPEX and other surveillance authorities would have their own blog and get some constructive feedback from the industry. There is always room for improvement.
Regan On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 8:06 AM Kunde, Brian <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> wrote: > John, > > > > Exactly!! > > > > Even annex I of the Machinery Directive (EHSR) can only be applied to a > product. Step 1 is for the manufacturer to make the determination of which > sections of the EHSR apply to their product and which sections do not by > means of the Risk Assessment. Only the manufacturer can make this > determination, so how is a field inspector going to be able to evaluate a > product without this information? They just have to do the best they can > and false non-compliances are going to be the result. > > > > The question is, are these false non-compliances making it into these > annual reports? If so, then the numbers may not be as meaningful as one > might hope. > > > > *Brian Kunde* > > Manager • Compliance Engineering > > LECO Corp • Compliance Testing Center > > > > *From:* John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] > *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 5:43 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] CE non-conformity statistics > > > > There's more. The recommended format for EU DoCs, at least for electrical > safety and EMC asserts conformity with Directives, not standards, and says > it 'applies' standards, not conforms to them: > > > > > > > > > > > *The object of the declaration described above is in conformity with the > relevant Union harmonisation legislation: EMC Directive 2014/30/EU e.g. Low > Voltage Directive (LVD) 2014/35/EU The following harmonised standards and > technical specifications have been applied: Title, Date of > standard/specification: e.g. EN 55014, aregearg + A1:2009 + A2:2011 * > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-11-02 21:11, John Woodgate wrote: > > Your first paragraph states the problem, and 'technical violation - no > action' is the way it's resolved. > > In a DoC, I wouldn't mention 'relevant' at all, particularly now the legal > profession has got its hooks into the European compliance system. It really > does look like a 'loophole creator', not only to a rabid regulator. The > place to assert relevance/irrelevance is in the assessment document, > whether for EMC or safety. > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-11-02 20:38, Kunde, Brian wrote: > > John, > > > > I love your example of the Power Supply. In this case, a “standard” says > one thing, but the manufacturer did it a different way. The use of > Standards to show compliance to a Directive is only voluntary. In a Hazard > Driven approach to safety, such a drop-dead requirement in a Standard > should not be allowed unless you only look at standards as a guide to > compliance, which they are. In a Risk Assessment, if doing something one > way over another would not cause an increase risk, then it would be > considered compliant. > > > > But what about a Manufacturer’s Declaration of Compliance where they list > standards? Do they have to abide by each of these standards to the letter > to be compliant with the Directives? I don’t think so. Many DoCs state > this, “conforms with all relevant provisions of the following,” blah blah > blah …. to where a list of standards and technical specifications are > listed. But who is say what is relevant? The Manufacturer is given that > authority in the NLF; not the inspector. > > > > This is all in fun and I’m not debating you on this. The fact is, you can > talk about “Hazard Driven” approach, or this or that, do lectures, write > books, get your picture in CE Magazine, but what it all boils down to is > making the inspectors happy. Maybe we should call this “Inspector Driven” > approach to Compliance. Smile!! Isn’t that what we do or try to do? > > > > The Other Brian > > > > *From:* John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk <j...@woodjohn.uk>] > *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 2:53 PM > *To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] CE non-conformity statistics > > > > A typical technical non-compliance is incorrect marking of power supply > data. Different standards have different requirements, and it's easy to > mistakenly state, for example, the supply current when the standard > requires the input power to be stated. Yes, the majority of reported > violations are minor and require no action, except that the manufacturer > has to fix the issue for future production. > > Another case, although I don't know if it would always be rated > 'technical' is when the offending product is shown to have an unpredictable > and random fault, which might well be caused by a component failure during > early use, so that the product was probably compliant when new. I know of a > case like that, where a ceramic capacitor fractured, which caused weak HF > oscillation that was detected by an adjacent radio. > > The issue of personal interpretations is embedded in the AHJ system and > needs a total change of approach, which is not probable. > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-11-02 18:31, Kunde, Brian wrote: > > Ok, I’ll pile on. > > > > I have never been involved in a market surveillance inspection so I really > have no right to comment, but I am trying to understand what constitutes > itself as a Technical Non-Compliance. > > > > Many of my products get inspected post-sale at our customer sites by > third-party labs or union inspectors doing a “Field Evaluation”. Most > inspections go very smoothly, but some labs/inspectors write up every > little thing they don’t understand or cannot test in the field as a > “Non-Compliance”. Sometimes they have their OWN interpretations of the > rules and documentation requirements. Then our customer is placed in the > middle as we try to make the lab/inspector understand why the product > really is compliant. I’m sure many of you have had similar experiences. > > > > When I see market surveillance reports with tens of thousands of > non-compliances listed but only a few dozen cases where any kind of real > “action” is taken, the first thing I wonder is how legitimate or serious > are the bulk of the non-compliances in the first place. It makes me think > that maybe the mass majority of these cases are so minor that they simply > become learning experience for someone and only the rare and more serious > non-compliances result in fines or legal action. > > > > Am I the only one who thinks this way? > > > > Don’t get me wrong; I love these types of reports with big numbers. If I > want, I can use them to scare my superiors into doing what I say. I might > even get more budget money to hire more people or get more lab space. But > I really would like to know how many of these non-compliances are really > bad bad product verses barely failed product verses a poor execution of the > difficult to interpret rules and regulations. > > > > Please don’t beat me up too bad. When I’m bored my mind drifts down dark > paths of no return. > > > > The Other Brian > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *LECO Corporation Notice:* This communication may contain confidential > information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this > by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > ------------------------------ > *LECO Corporation Notice:* This communication may contain confidential > information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this > by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
