It seems a lot like an intermittent failure on a phase, either in the VFD or due to a bad connection from motor to VFD. Similar to when a step motor loses a step, it stalls.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:47 PM Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> wrote: > I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for > the entire cable to be alright. > > I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure > could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable > just in case? > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher <to...@pgrahamdunn.com> > escribió: > > > Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD? > > > > Todd Zuercher > > P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > 630 Henry Street > > Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > > > By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this > > failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was > working > > perfectly for more than 6 months. > > > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia < > > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió: > > > > > Hi again guys, > > > > > > Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle > working > > > perfectly. > > > > > > Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have > > > overcurrent but full rotor slipping. > > > > > > The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but > absolutely > > > no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to > > turn > > > and also I can feel the vibration. When I command the VFD to stop the > > rotor > > > feels like always smooth and with no resistance. > > > > > > I think I'm going to purchase a new VFD because I don't know how much I > > > can play with this one without a solution. I mean an hour ago it was > > > working perfectly. And between starts and stops this happens and > nothing > > > seems to fix it. The spindle is even colder now than when it was > working > > > ok. > > > > > > Just wanted to tell you so you can let me know your thoughts, but I > guess > > > this VFD is the problem. > > > > > > El mar., 14 de marzo de 2023 21:07, Leonardo Marsaglia < > > > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió: > > > > > >> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into > failure > > >>> at extreme temperatures. Just for example, I was setting up a > Yaskawa > > F7 > > >>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago. > The > > >>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was > > >>> testing it. But when we started production we ran into an issue. > > Normally > > >>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to > > cutting > > >>> speed. But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on > > >>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the > overload. > > >>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control > started > > the > > >>> cut and snapped off the bit. The settings were close enough to > > prevent the > > >>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the > > spindle > > >>> running right. The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency > > and > > >>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt > > setting > > >>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the > > spindle. > > >>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some > > odd > > >>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped. I > > didn't > > >>> think that seemed out of place. But once the spindle warmed up it > was > > >>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle > > acceleration > > >>> way down. I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, > > but I > > >>> lowered it significantly. After doing that the current output to the > > >>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it > > >>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate. > > >>> > > >>> Is your drive a Yaskawa? What exactly are the drive fault messages? > > >>> > > >> > > >> This is a Simphoenix E580 (or E280 depending on the market) chinese > VFD. > > >> > > >> The fault I'm getting is overcurrent during operation. There's an > > >> overcurrent during acceleration but that's not the one I'm getting > > although > > >> the VFD is failing to get to the working speed. There's a parameter I > > can > > >> try tomorrow that's called revolution tracking start. The manual says > > the > > >> following: > > >> > > >> 1: Revolution tracking start > > >> It is applicable to the occasion of fault resetting and restart and > > >> restart after power-off. The inverter > > >> will automatically judge the running speed and direction of the motor, > > >> and starts the rotating motor in > > >> a smooth and impact-free way according to the detection and judge > > >> results; see below figure for the > > >> revolution tracking start sketch. > > >> > > >> I'll keep reading to see If I can find a way to modify the voltage > > during > > >> acceleration to avoid overcurrent also. > > >> > > >> > > >> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 18:06, Todd Zuercher (< > to...@pgrahamdunn.com > > >) > > >> escribió: > > >> > > >>> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into > > failure > > >>> at extreme temperatures. Just for example, I was setting up a > Yaskawa > > F7 > > >>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago. > The > > >>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was > > >>> testing it. But when we started production we ran into an issue. > > Normally > > >>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to > > cutting > > >>> speed. But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on > > >>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the > overload. > > >>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control > started > > the > > >>> cut and snapped off the bit. The settings were close enough to > > prevent the > > >>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the > > spindle > > >>> running right. The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency > > and > > >>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt > > setting > > >>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the > > spindle. > > >>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some > > odd > > >>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped. I > > didn't > > >>> think that seemed out of place. But once the spindle warmed up it > was > > >>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle > > acceleration > > >>> way down. I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, > > but I > > >>> lowered it significantly. After doing that the current output to the > > >>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it > > >>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate. > > >>> > > >>> Is your drive a Yaskawa? What exactly are the drive fault messages? > > >>> > > >>> Todd Zuercher > > >>> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >>> 630 Henry Street > > >>> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >>> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 3:30 PM > > >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) < > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > >>> > > >>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >>> > > >>> About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without > making a > > >>> mess but I just used the parameters that the spindle manufacturer > sent > > me. > > >>> With that config I was working ok for more than 6 months. So unless > > >>> something was right there at the limit too far from the correct one. > > The > > >>> main change here is ambient temperature. It's been almost 3 weeks > with > > >>> temperatures of about 38°C. > > >>> > > >>> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher (< > to...@pgrahamdunn.com > > >) > > >>> escribió: > > >>> > > >>> > Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions > of > > >>> > their VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it. For most it > is > > >>> > simply loading in a special firmware version at the factory that > > >>> > allows the drive to be set to the higher frequency. There is > usually > > >>> > a compromise though and a number of other normal features must be > > >>> > disabled because they don't work at the high frequency. For > example > > >>> > with the current Yaskawa V1000 drive, the high frequency version > goes > > >>> > up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain circumstances), but it loses all > > >>> > auto tuning features, flux vector control and a list of other > things > > >>> > are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so supplement to the manual > > >>> > covering all of the changes from the stock > > >>> > firmware.) But they can be difficult to order. We tried to order > a > > >>> > new Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after > the > > >>> > 3rd time of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired > > >>> > waiting, canceled the order and bought a used drive off Ebay. Also > > >>> > they won't sell them to just anyone, you can't live in the wrong > > >>> > country and have to offer some proof you have a legitimate use for > > it. > > >>> > > > >>> > PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem > > with > > >>> > the VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad. > I've > > >>> > never had a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I > > >>> > have that much experience with drives going bad.) Usually either > > they > > >>> > work or they don't. I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to > > >>> > replace them and put the drive back in service. Others that just > > died > > >>> > I was not able to pinpoint the failure and just had to replace > them. > > >>> > This last drive I had to replace, I could see being a capacitor > > >>> > problem. It would fail to power up for a couple of hours after > first > > >>> turning on the machine in the morning. > > >>> > It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only > > >>> > turned off for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was > > wait > > >>> > for the power LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to > > the > > >>> > machine to clear the alarms and you were good to go. > > >>> > > > >>> > Todd Zuercher > > >>> > P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >>> > 630 Henry Street > > >>> > Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >>> > Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >>> > > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > > >>> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > >>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM > > >>> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > >>> > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > >>> > > > >>> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >>> > > > >>> > Hi guys, hope you are doing well. > > >>> > > > >>> > Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. > > It > > >>> > works perfectly at the beginning but then it fails and gives me an > > >>> > overcurrent alarm. > > >>> > > > >>> > I took it apart and nothing seems to be wrong at first sight. I'm > > >>> > thinking about replacing the capacitors module but for that I'll > have > > >>> > to wait a couple of weeks for the new module to arrive. I can > > desolder > > >>> > and install new capacitors on this module, but I can't find > something > > >>> > as big as these ones here in Argentina. So I think I'll get a new > VFD > > >>> > and with that solved I'll repair this one. > > >>> > > > >>> > The best VFD I can get here in terms of cost benefit is a YASKAWA > > >>> > GA500 that reaches up to 590 Hz. It's more than ok for me since I > > >>> > don't usually go more than 500 Hz with this one so that's my > solution > > >>> at this point. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 9:16, Todd Zuercher > > >>> > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > > >>> > escribió: > > >>> > > > >>> > > No, they are not. Yes most small high speed router spindles > (less > > >>> > > than > > >>> > > 10hp) are 2 pole. But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer > spindles > > >>> > > on our big routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole. Which by the way > > >>> > > makes getting a suitable VFD to run them much much more > difficult. > > >>> > > Most VFDs are limited to max output frequencies of about 500hz. > > >>> > > (Something about preventing people from building high speed > > >>> > > centrifuges I think.) > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Todd Zuercher > > >>> > > P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >>> > > 630 Henry Street > > >>> > > Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >>> > > Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >>> > > > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- > > >>> > > From: Viesturs Lācis <viesturs.la...@gmail.com> > > >>> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM > > >>> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > >>> > > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > >>> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > >>> > > > > >>> > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Leonardo, are you sure about those Hz vs. RPM numbers? AFAIK all > > >>> > > high speed spindles are 2-pole motors (correct me if I am wrong > on > > >>> > > this), then you should have 200 Hz for 200 RPS = 12000 RPM and > 400 > > >>> > > Hz for 400 RPS = > > >>> > > 24000 RPM > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Viesturs > > >>> > > > > >>> > > pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:55 — lietotājs Leonardo > > >>> > > Marsaglia (< > > >>> > > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) rakstīja: > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > By the way, the nominal frequency is 400 hz at 12000 rpm. > > Nominal > > >>> > > > voltage is 380 volts but that varies of course when the VFD is > > >>> > > > working. Max frequency is 800 hz at 24000 rpm but I never came > > >>> > > > close to > > >>> > > that. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:50, Leonardo Marsaglia > > >>> > > > (<ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > > >>> > > > escribió: > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Hi Todd, and thanks for the response! > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the > > >>> > > > > spindle and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. > > curves > > >>> > > > > to > > >>> > > have some guidance. > > >>> > > > > I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's > ok. > > >>> > > > > Also I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with > > no > > >>> > > > > troubles and it was working almost 10 hours straight each > day. > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no > cutting > > >>> > > > > forces involved, I can't feel any difference from the first > > time > > >>> > > > > I tested it. Also by hand it feels the same as always but > that > > >>> > > > > could be my perception off course. > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of > > >>> > > > > warming up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C > at > > >>> > > > > the body of the spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 > > >>> > > > > minutes. We monitored the spindle temperature at the bearings > > >>> > > > > and stator and never exceeded the 65°C at the stator / 57°C > at > > >>> > > > > the bearings. VFD current, voltage and internal temperature > > were > > >>> > > > > ok (no more than 43°C when working at full load on the VFD). > > >>> > > > > Then we started to cut another board and that's when the VFD > > >>> > > > > started giving problems. At the moment we tried to accelerate > > >>> > > > > the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm using a 10 seconds ramp > > >>> > > > > approximately to reach 15000 rpm) the overcurrent alarm > started > > >>> . There was no way of making it to work. > > >>> > > > > It > > >>> > > looks to me that the VFD could be the problem because everything > > >>> > > else was ok. > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and > > >>> > > > > then I'll open it and check the capacitors and all the joints > > to > > >>> > > > > see if I see an evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% > sure > > >>> > > > > the problem is > > >>> > > in the VFD. > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher > > >>> > > > > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > > >>> > > > > escribió: > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to > > overcurrent. > > >>> > > > >> Were you running the spindle at lower RPMs? Router spindles > > >>> > > > >> generally don't like running at speeds less than 6000rpm, > > >>> > > > >> especially if the VFD settings aren’t right. The VFD needs > to > > >>> > > > >> be set so that it reduces the voltage applied with reduced > > >>> frequency. > > >>> > > > >> If this volt/hz reduction curve isn't right, either you can > > >>> > > > >> over current and overheat the motor at lower speeds, or if > set > > >>> > > > >> too low you lose what little torque the spindle has. To > know > > >>> > > > >> what these settings need to be set to you need to know the > > >>> > > > >> motor's rated speed and voltage at those speeds and current > > >>> > > > >> ratings. If the spindle manufacturer didn't supply a > midrange > > >>> > > > >> voltage setting, you may need > > >>> > > to find that setting experimentally. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> That said, high speed spindle bearings can be failing and > the > > >>> > > > >> spindle still spin mostly freely by hand, but the spindle > will > > >>> > > > >> be loud at speed due to vibration and will overheat if run > for > > >>> > > > >> extended periods of time at speed. A high speed spindle > > should > > >>> > > > >> be very quiet at speed (not sound like a conventional router > > >>> > > > >> motor.) Check for any slightest notchy-ness, when turning > the > > >>> > > > >> spindle by hand. It is often more cost-effective to have a > > >>> > > > >> loud spindle rebuilt before it totally fails, than to run it > > >>> > > > >> till it won’t run anymore and then try to rebuilt it or have > > to > > >>> > > > >> replace it because > > >>> > > damage to the spindle is too severe. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> What are your spindle motor’s rated speed, voltage and > > current? > > >>> > > > >> What do you have the VFD set up for minimum, maximum, base > and > > >>> > > > >> mid-range voltages, and frequencies? Yes, those are 8 > > separate > > >>> > > > >> settings that most VFDs need to have configured to run a > high > > >>> > > > >> speed spindle correctly. Unfortunately many times the > spindle > > >>> > > > >> manufacture will only provide you with the spindle’s rated > > >>> > > > >> frequency and voltage (use this for the “Base” frequency and > > >>> > > > >> voltage in the VFD) and the maximum frequency and maybe > > >>> voltage. > > >>> > > > >> If you are lucky and the spindle manufacture provided you > with > > >>> > > > >> some numbers to use for the mid-range settings if so, use > > them. > > >>> > > > >> They may not be called that, it might just look like a low > or > > >>> > > > >> minimum speed setting with a reduced voltage (might be 5-7k > > >>> rpm). > > >>> > > > >> If you don’t have a recommendation from the spindle > > >>> > > > >> manufacture, experiment with different mid-range voltage > > >>> > > > >> settings to find one that > > >>> > > keeps the VFD’s current output safely below the spindles rated > > >>> > > continuous current. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD > > >>> > > > >> spindle that had recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the > > >>> > > > >> mid-range, but I also had to set the minimum frequency and > > >>> > > > >> voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the motor from > > >>> > > > >> occasionally stalling on acceleration when starting from > > >>> > > > >> stopped. When those settings were incorrect the drive would > > >>> > > > >> overcurrent and shut down. When they were close but not > quite > > >>> > > > >> right the drive would run at high current and not always > > >>> > > > >> accelerate correctly (stalling). With them correct the > drive > > >>> > > > >> accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak > > >>> > > currents of about 15amps while doing it. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, > > so > > >>> > > > >> it sat on my work computer till this morning. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> Todd Zuercher > > >>> > > > >> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >>> > > > >> 630 Henry Street > > >>> > > > >> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >>> > > > >> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >>> > > > >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > >>> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM > > >>> > > > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > >>> > > > >> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > >>> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle > problem > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled > > >>> > > > >> down a bit, it started to work ok until I had the problem > > >>> > > > >> again. What I'm mostly worried about is, if this was caused > > due > > >>> > > > >> to an overheat, why did that overheat occur in the first > > place? > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (< > > >>> > > > >> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > > >>> > > > >> escribió: > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are > > rather > > >>> > > > >> > particular > > >>> > > > >> >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low > > >>> inductance. > > >>> > > > >> >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? > You > > >>> > > > >> >> may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency > and > > >>> voltage. > > >>> > > > >> >> What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz > curve > > >>> > > > >> >> to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at > > >>> > > > >> >> lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on > > >>> acceleration. > > >>> > > > >> >> These settings usually need to be significantly different > > >>> > > > >> >> from most VFD's default setting (which are usually > > >>> > > > >> >> configured for a 60hz > > >>> > > > >> >> motor.) > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > Hi Todd, > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as > possible > > >>> > > > >> > for you to see. But this setup was working well until the > > >>> > > > >> > extreme heat days > > >>> > > > >> started. > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) > > could > > >>> > > > >> > have made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the > > >>> > > > >> > limit before and the extreme heat conditions triggered the > > >>> effect? > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > Thank you! > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher > > >>> > > > >> > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > > >>> > > > >> > escribió: > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are > > >>> > > > >> >> rather particular about how the VFD is configured because > > of > > >>> > > > >> >> their low inductance. What are your settings for base > > >>> > > > >> >> frequency and > > >>> > voltage? > > >>> > > > >> >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange > frequency > > >>> > > > >> >> and voltage. What these settings will do is adjust the > > >>> > > > >> >> volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent > > >>> > > > >> >> when running at lower RPMs, and help prevent > > >>> > > > >> >> stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration. These > settings > > >>> > > > >> >> usually need to be significantly different from most > VFD's > > >>> > > > >> >> default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz > > >>> > > > >> >> motor.) > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> Todd Zuercher > > >>> > > > >> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >>> > > > >> >> 630 Henry Street > > >>> > > > >> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >>> > > > >> >> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > > >>> > > > >> >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > >>> > > > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM > > >>> > > > >> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > >>> > > > >> >> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > >>> > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle > > >>> > > > >> >> problem > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at > 15000 > > >>> > > > >> >> RPM and the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom > side > > >>> > > > >> >> where the bearings for the tool holder are, and almost > 65º > > >>> > > > >> >> in the body part where the > > >>> > > > >> stator is. > > >>> > > > >> >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these > > spindles, > > >>> > > > >> >> 75ºC it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still > > >>> > > > >> >> waiting for a detailed answer from the factory. This > time, > > >>> > > > >> >> the VFD worked fine, no whining with no rotor spin. Now I > > >>> > > > >> >> need to cut some wood while monitoring the temperature > > >>> > > > >> >> during the process and hope the temperature > > >>> > > > >> doesn't go too high. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From > > >>> > > > >> >> what I can tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and > > Jon > > >>> > > > >> >> pointed > > >>> > out. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> Thanks to all for your help! :) > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett > > >>> > > > >> >> (<ghesk...@shentel.net>) > > >>> > > > >> >> escribió: > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: > > >>> > > > >> >> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads > > me > > >>> > > > >> >> > > to the bearings > > >>> > > > >> >> > as > > >>> > > > >> >> > > a problem. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal > > >>> > > > >> >> > > vacuum system is working, the spindle tends to spin > by > > >>> > > > >> >> > > itself because of the vacuum action on the impeller I > > >>> > installed. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > This almost never happened yesterday. So, to sum up: > I > > >>> > > > >> >> > > was able to free turn the spindle by hand at all > times, > > >>> > > > >> >> > > but the vacuum was not always able to make it spin > the > > >>> > > > >> >> > > impeller and if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as > days > > >>> > > > >> >> > > before. This is what makes me suspect about the > > bearings. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday > > >>> > > > >> >> > > were with cutting forces involved, never with the > > >>> > > > >> >> > > spindle turning free. Could > > >>> > > > >> >> > it > > >>> > > > >> >> > > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up > > >>> > > > >> >> > > because of a damaged bearing is what's making the VFD > > >>> > > > >> >> > > triggering for > > >>> > > > >> overcurrent? > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot > > >>> > > > >> >> > > and with no load > > >>> > > > >> >> > the > > >>> > > > >> >> > > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > This, as Jon pointed out, recovered on its own a few > > >>> minutes later. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll > > >>> > > > >> >> > > let you know if I > > >>> > > > >> >> > can > > >>> > > > >> >> > > note anything new. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind > and > > >>> > > helpful! > > >>> > > > >> >> > > :) > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (< > > >>> > > > >> >> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > > >>> > > > >> >> > > escribió: > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Hi guys. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior > > with > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> my spindle and > > >>> > > > >> >> > I'm > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> a little worried. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> The problem I had today for the first time is the > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> spindle was getting really hot and started to slip > > (you > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> could hear the frequency from the inverter was on > spot > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After > > >>> > > > >> >> > a > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> current alarm and the spindle was stopped. Once the > > the > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> spindle cooled down it worked > > >>> > > > >> >> > perfectly. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> This never happened before but also I must clarify > > that > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> today the > > >>> > > > >> >> > ambient > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under > that > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> roof where the > > >>> > > > >> >> > router > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> something to do with the problem. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> air > > >>> > > cooled. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> It has > > >>> > > > >> >> > a > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle > speed > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> for > > >>> > > > >> cooling. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> It always gets warm (there are several labels on the > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> spindle’s body for caution because of the heat) but > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> nothing > > >>> > > like today. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot > days > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> I'm having > > >>> > > > >> >> here? > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Should I think about changing bearings or even > rewind > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> the > > >>> > > motor? > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> I've > > >>> > > > >> >> > only > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too > > >>> hot. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> I will be really thankful if you can share your > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> thoughts about > > >>> > > > >> this. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > I think I'd want to look at the solder joints on the > big > > >>> > > > >> >> > capacitors in the vfd, keeping in mind that they can > hold > > >>> > > > >> >> > quite a charge for quite a while when turned off, and > > that > > >>> > > > >> >> > is definitely a lethal voltage. When I said look, I'm > > >>> > > > >> >> > looking with an old camera lens for a magnifying glass, > > >>> > > > >> >> > checking for hairline cracks in the solder, > particularly > > >>> > > > >> >> > at the edge of the solder puddle where the copper foil > > >>> > > > >> >> > begins, that is a favorite place for some seemingly > crazy > > >>> > > > >> >> > thermal effects. And you can't just scrape it down to > > >>> > > > >> >> > clean copper & bridge it with solder, you must bridge > the > > >>> > > > >> >> > crack with a piece of suitable gauge copper wire when > > >>> > > > >> >> > patching such. And for future crack development > > >>> > > > >> >> > protection, a 2% silver bearing solder is much stronger > > >>> > > > >> than the usual eutectic mix. > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > Same inspection comments apply to the semi's soldered > > >>> > > > >> >> > joints, heat sinks can exert joint breaking forces as > > they > > >>> > > > >> >> > heat. I have a couple of old 16mm projector lenses > that > > >>> > > > >> >> > get me up close and > > >>> > > > >> personal views. > > >>> > > > >> >> > An rch looks like a saw log to them. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Thanks for your help as always! > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> Leonardo. > > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LDhZ7xGz1UJrQNjkYsCOddkK7ycd6byqQmQ%2BKMSQCXI%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > s% > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 3A > > >>> > > > >> >> > > %2F%2< > > >>> > > > >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F > > >>> > > > >> %2 > > >>> > > > >> 52 > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Fli%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Ca716ced2 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > cd > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 8b > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 45443 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > b1208db1fe039ab%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > C0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > C6381 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > 38820129481532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM > > >>> > > > >> >> > > DA > > >>> > > > >> >> > > iL > > >>> > > > >> >> > > CJQIj > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > &s > > >>> > > > >> >> > > da > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ta=rj > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > 6R%2BZb94rpPdzr%2F32kOery9rQ%2Ft47LLFaSdSWYo5h4%3D&reser > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ve > > >>> > > > >> >> > > d= > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > sts.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data= > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 05 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > C01%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Cto > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C7c75dca8021a427b281508db1f821107 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > C5 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 75854 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 4c5 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > 73f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138415730530106%7CU > > >>> > > > >> >> > > nk > > >>> > > > >> >> > > no > > >>> > > > >> >> > > wn%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > TWF > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ha > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Ww > > >>> > > > >> >> > > iLCJX > > >>> > > > >> >> > > VCI > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > > 6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s1%2FMmGIe%2BOIgMMj1IgKv6O > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Ts > > >>> > > > >> >> > > DF > > >>> > > > >> >> > > xMuEk > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 7ms > > >>> > > > >> >> > > t4mMsD%2FGE%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > Cheers, Gene Heskett. > > >>> > > > >> >> > -- > > >>> > > > >> >> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: > > >>> > > > >> >> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that > > order." > > >>> > > > >> >> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for > > >>> > > > >> >> > the law, we must first make the law > > >>> > > > >> >> respectable. > > >>> > > > >> >> > - Louis D. Brandeis > > >>> > > > >> >> > Genes Web page > > >>> > > > >> >> > < > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 3A > > >>> > > > >> >> > %2 > > >>> > > > >> >> > F%2Fg%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550 > > >>> > > > >> >> > a0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 93 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 493cecaf08db2475a685%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > 0% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 0%7C638143859985022697%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4 > > >>> > > > >> >> > wL > > >>> > > > >> >> > jA > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000 > > >>> > > > >> >> > %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > C% > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 7C%7C&sdata=48s1PKOthDl3Q%2FskZ3UcRsFQM51BkvwWffsflmJwVI0% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 3D > > >>> > > > >> >> > &r > > >>> > > > >> >> > eserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > ene%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Ca716ced2cd > > >>> > > > >> >> > 8b > > >>> > > > >> >> > 45 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 443b1 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 208db1fe039ab%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > C6 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 38 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 13882 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 0129481532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ > > >>> > > > >> >> > QI > > >>> > > > >> >> > jo > > >>> > > > >> >> > iV2lu > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=q > > >>> > > > >> >> > og > > >>> > > > >> >> > Bf > > >>> > > > >> >> > XcZjM > > >>> > > > >> >> > 79r1NazIK82mCzsnrm4jJaRwbSLdvvPMg%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > slinuxbox.net > > %3A6309%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn > > >>> > > > >> >> > .c > > >>> > > > >> >> > om > > >>> > > > >> >> > %7C7c > > >>> > > > >> >> > 75d > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > ca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806 > > >>> > > > >> >> > fb > > >>> > > > >> >> > 43 > > >>> > > > >> >> > %7C0% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 7C0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > %7C638138415730530106%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w > > >>> > > > >> >> > Lj > > >>> > > > >> >> > Aw > > >>> > > > >> >> > MDAiL > > >>> > > > >> >> > CJQ > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > &s > > >>> > > > >> >> > da > > >>> > > > >> >> > ta=3X tFc > > >>> > > > >> >> > wOSBSFmFW5t2k9Bzfka64mLqLY4LnhinVrTrWY%3D&reserved=0> > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> >> > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> >> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 3A > > >>> > > > >> >> > %2 > > >>> > > > >> >> > F%2Fl%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550 > > >>> > > > >> >> > a0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 93 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 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>> >> > jo > > >>> > > > >> >> > iV2lu > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=d > > >>> > > > >> >> > Au > > >>> > > > >> >> > IK > > >>> > > > >> >> > CeZqg > > >>> > > > >> >> > NHtCWkxG4a%2Bi7p332%2FkPW%2FQNlxo85am7o%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > C0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 1% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 7Ctod > > >>> > > > >> >> > dz% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C7c75dca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C575 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 85 > > >>> > > > >> >> > 44 > > >>> > > > >> >> > c573f > > >>> > > > >> >> > 47c > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138415730530106%7CUnknown%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> > CT > > >>> > > > >> >> > WF > > >>> > > > >> >> > pbGZs > > >>> > > > >> >> > b3d > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV > > >>> > > > >> >> > CI > > >>> > > > >> >> > 6M > > >>> > > > >> >> > n0%3D > > >>> > > > >> >> > %7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s1%2FMmGIe%2BOIgMMj1IgKv6OTsDFxMuEk7ms > > >>> > > > >> >> > t4 > > >>> > > > >> >> > mM > > >>> > > > >> >> > sD%2F > > >>> > > > >> >> > GE% > > >>> > > > >> >> > 3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> >> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A > > >>> > > > >> >> %2 > > >>> > > > >> >> F% > > >>> > > > >> >> 2Flis%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550a0 > > >>> > > > >> >> 93 > > >>> > > > >> >> 49 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 3cecaf08db2475a685%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> 0% > > >>> > > > >> >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 638143859985022697%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM > > >>> > > > >> >> DA > > >>> > > > >> >> iL > > >>> > > > >> >> > > CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> C& > > >>> > > > >> >> sd > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ata=5uvf8vSaMWJ7BHGVWpA370oom4NAkomVmqW3r1Cigro%3D&reserved= > > >>> > > > >> >> 0 > > >>> > > > >> >> ts.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> 01 > > >>> > > > >> >> %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> Ctodd > > >>> > > > >> >> z%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Ca716ced2cd8b45443b1208db1fe039ab%7C575 > > >>> > > > >> >> 85 > > >>> > > > >> >> 44 > > >>> > > > >> >> c573f > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138820129481532%7CUnknown% > > >>> > > > >> >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> >> TW > > >>> > > > >> >> FpbGZ > > >>> > > > >> >> > > sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ > > >>> > > > >> >> XV > > >>> > > > >> >> CI > > >>> > > > >> >> 6Mn0% > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WUmFbAPwypt9tfFngQOn0ADiTlgp1bXQ7IF > > >>> > > > >> >> g5 > > >>> > > > >> >> dm > > >>> > > > >> >> HEL0% > > >>> > > > >> >> 3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> >> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A > > >>> > > > >> >> %2 > > >>> > > > >> >> F% > > >>> > > > >> >> 2Flis%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550a0 > > >>> > > > >> >> 93 > > >>> > > > >> >> 49 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 3cecaf08db2475a685%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> 0% > > >>> > > > >> >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 638143859985022697%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM > > >>> > > > >> >> DA > > >>> > > > >> >> iL > > >>> > > > >> >> > > CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7 > > >>> > > > >> >> C& > > >>> > > > >> >> sd > > >>> > > > >> >> > > ata=5uvf8vSaMWJ7BHGVWpA370oom4NAkomVmqW3r1Cigro%3D&reserved= > > >>> > > > >> >> 0 > > >>> > > > >> >> ts.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C > > >>> > > > >> >> 01 > > >>> > > > >> >> %7 > > >>> > > > >> >> Ctodd > > >>> > > > >> >> z%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Ca716ced2cd8b45443b1208db1fe039ab%7C575 > > >>> > > > >> >> 85 > > >>> > > > >> >> 44 > > >>> > > > >> >> c573f > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138820129481532%7CUnknown% > > >>> > > > >> >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> >> TW > > >>> > > > >> >> FpbGZ > > >>> > > > >> >> > > sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ > > >>> > > > >> >> XV > > >>> > > > >> >> CI > > >>> > > > >> >> 6Mn0% > > >>> > > > >> >> > > 3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WUmFbAPwypt9tfFngQOn0ADiTlgp1bXQ7IF > > >>> > > > >> >> g5 > > >>> > > > >> >> dm > > >>> > > > >> >> HEL0% > > >>> > > > >> >> 3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> >> > > >>> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F > > >>> > > > >> %2 > > >>> > > > >> Fl%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Cba8844617fcb4048 > > >>> > > > >> ef > > >>> > > > >> > > 7c08db24b24e99%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638 > > >>> > > > >> 14 > > >>> > > > >> > > 4120480147571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI > > >>> > > > >> jo > > >>> > > > >> > > iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u > > >>> > > > >> mF > > >>> > > > >> NRv%2FW3ImwxEsH7Hd9z%2F1lDlNIH2fPWILFwh%2FGnNE%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> ists.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C0 > > >>> > > > >> 1% > > >>> > > > >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> toddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550a093493cecaf08db2475a685%7C57 > > >>> > > > >> 58 > > >>> > > > >> 54 > > >>> > > > >> > > 4c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638143859985022697%7CUnkno > > >>> > > > >> wn > > >>> > > > >> %7 > > >>> > > > >> > > CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW > > >>> > > > >> wi > > >>> > > > >> LC > > >>> > > > >> > > JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2xfG6S5CCgkzhkmbXtQmWqZcwq02 > > >>> > > > >> Om > > >>> > > > >> ih > > >>> > > > >> 1B2iVvFgNzw%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > >> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F > > >>> > > > >> %2 > > >>> > > > >> Fl%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Cba8844617fcb4048 > > >>> > > > >> ef > > >>> > > > >> > > 7c08db24b24e99%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638 > > >>> > > > >> 14 > > >>> > > > >> > > 4120480147571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI > > >>> > > > >> jo > > >>> > > > >> > > iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u > > >>> > > > >> mF > > >>> > > > >> NRv%2FW3ImwxEsH7Hd9z%2F1lDlNIH2fPWILFwh%2FGnNE%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> ists.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C0 > > >>> > > > >> 1% > > >>> > > > >> 7C > > >>> > > > >> toddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550a093493cecaf08db2475a685%7C57 > > >>> > > > >> 58 > > >>> > > > >> 54 > > >>> > > > >> > > 4c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638143859985022697%7CUnkno > > >>> > > > >> wn > > >>> > > > >> %7 > > >>> > > > >> > > CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW > > >>> > > > >> wi > > >>> > > > >> LC > > >>> > > > >> > > JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2xfG6S5CCgkzhkmbXtQmWqZcwq02 > > >>> > > > >> Om > > >>> > > > >> ih > > >>> > > > >> 1B2iVvFgNzw%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > >> > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F > > >>> > > > li%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C90f8aee037a840a406d > > >>> > > > > > f08db24c2c374%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C6381441 > > >>> > > > > > 91179607968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2 > > >>> > > > > > luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QsEWfzv > > >>> > > > IBtJ6gJVkoTY16jGGwd9IH3zP3Q5Ia6fN9D4%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > st%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Cba8844617fcb4048ef7 > > >>> > > > c0 > > >>> > > > > > 8db24b24e99%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638144120 > > >>> > > > 48 > > >>> > > > > > 0147571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMz > > >>> > > > Ii > > >>> > > > > > LCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MCwLlA%2F10o4 > > >>> > > > 4V > > >>> > > > dZgW0yqG6au2SrAgwcad6J9kbwlVZM%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Cto > > >>> > > > dd > > >>> > > > z% > > >>> > > > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C5c61d550a093493cecaf08db2475a685%7C5758544c573 > > >>> > > > f4 > > >>> > > > 7c > > >>> > > > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638143859985022697%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ > > >>> > > > sb > > >>> > > > 3d > > >>> > > > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3 > > >>> > > > D% > > >>> > > > 7C > > >>> > > > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2xfG6S5CCgkzhkmbXtQmWqZcwq02Omih1B2iVvFgNzw%3D > > >>> > > > &r > > >>> > > > es > > >>> > > > erved=0 > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fli%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u3ozTm0Fx%2BSAiPnHtmPtloKJKunQEzyN7WQ9PEFOQT4%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > st%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C90f8aee037a840a406df0 > > >>> > > > > 8db24c2c374%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C63814419117 > > >>> > > > > 9607968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIi > > >>> > > > > LCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B%2BM%2BsZQMFQg > > >>> > > LZXEvCvMVAlW%2B6AbXaLLygsWhfzV2ASI%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctodd > > >>> > > z% > > >>> > > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Cba8844617fcb4048ef7c08db24b24e99%7C5758544c573f4 > > >>> > > 7c > > >>> > > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638144120480147571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb > > >>> > > 3d > > >>> > > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D% > > >>> > > 7C > > >>> > > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KWiCT%2Fd38MeSmNuwOdci3TYTGXlJoXSu4Xk8ylOysfE%3D > > >>> > > &r > > >>> > > eserved=0 > > >>> > > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fli%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u3ozTm0Fx%2BSAiPnHtmPtloKJKunQEzyN7WQ9PEFOQT4%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > st%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C90f8aee037a840a406df0 > > >>> > > > > 8db24c2c374%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C63814419117 > > >>> > > > > 9607968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIi > > >>> > > > > LCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B%2BM%2BsZQMFQg > > >>> > > LZXEvCvMVAlW%2B6AbXaLLygsWhfzV2ASI%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctodd > > >>> > > z% > > >>> > > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7Cba8844617fcb4048ef7c08db24b24e99%7C5758544c573f4 > > >>> > > 7c > > >>> > > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638144120480147571%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb > > >>> > > 3d > > >>> > > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D% > > >>> > > 7C > > >>> > > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KWiCT%2Fd38MeSmNuwOdci3TYTGXlJoXSu4Xk8ylOysfE%3D > > >>> > > &r > > >>> > > eserved=0 > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VEynvyPHfOKO%2FTKCN33lW66XqLzXPidJbKdbRbgceHA%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz% > > >>> > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C90f8aee037a840a406df08db24c2c374%7C5758544c573f47c > > >>> > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638144191179607968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d > > >>> > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C > > >>> > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=26GmY42l7yF1fTcYTyf8JsNLTh9n1BEjiVvZyseE0oo%3D&res > > >>> > erved=0 > > >>> > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > Emc-users mailing list > > >>> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VEynvyPHfOKO%2FTKCN33lW66XqLzXPidJbKdbRbgceHA%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > s.sourceforge.net > > %2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz% > > >>> > 40pgrahamdunn.com > > %7C90f8aee037a840a406df08db24c2c374%7C5758544c573f47c > > >>> > > > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638144191179607968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d > > >>> > > > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C > > >>> > > > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=26GmY42l7yF1fTcYTyf8JsNLTh9n1BEjiVvZyseE0oo%3D&res > > >>> > erved=0 > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > >>> > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EK0UBVe2SXmV8WNv4jLfaJBeIgwj%2Fq9cB16VkCv0dSE%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Emc-users mailing list > > >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>> > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EK0UBVe2SXmV8WNv4jLfaJBeIgwj%2Fq9cB16VkCv0dSE%3D&reserved=0 > > >>> > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C91e18d0c1bcb4665c0fa08db262fc7fc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638145758940183202%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EK0UBVe2SXmV8WNv4jLfaJBeIgwj%2Fq9cB16VkCv0dSE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Matthew Herd Email: herd.m...@gmail.com Cell: 610-608-8930 _______________________________________________ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
