I wrote:
> Toma wrote:
>
>> On 31/07/2008, Jose Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> .......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> As to the above mentioned steps.. I disagree with some of the
>>>>>> arguments,
>>>>>> but they are also not unreasonable - so long as everyone realizes that
>>>>>> the state
>>>>>> of many things in E is still rather basic and are willing to 'break'
>>>>>> apis on
>>>>>> major releases when they bring good improvements.. E is still small
>>>>>> enough that
>>>>>> it can be fluid if it wants to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, one very important thing to consider here is: What exactly is
>>>>>> it that
>>>>>> E wants to achieve? What are the basic 'large' goals?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thats a funny one, because a lot of people say "Oh, E17 isnt as good
>>>>> as Gnome... or KDE" when its not completely a desktop environmant like
>>>>> those 2. It has a lot of the mechanics of a full DE and being so
>>>>> modular, could fill the things needed to become a full DE from that
>>>>> point. (And then you ask, whats the difference between what E17 is now
>>>>> and a full DE?!? I dont know. Ask wikipedia or something.) If it was
>>>>> competeing souly against WMs like fluxbox and friends, then thats
>>>>> already done and kicking ass.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anything, it might be an idea to ask people, what 'needs' to be
>>>>> done? I see a few people on IRC and on forums saying, "E17 is good,
>>>>> but its just not finished/has bits missing". Some lusers go as far to
>>>>> say "Err E17 is buggy and not stable! Waa" simply becuase there isnt a
>>>>> 1.0 release.
>>>>>
>>>>> Toma
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I follow some of this. There are many different things
>>>> that
>>>> "E" could do or become, it's not just a question of what the
>>>> wm/desktop-shell
>>>> could do/be, or even what a desktop environment of some sort could do/be.
>>>> There are questions of development 'platforms', what they might be
>>>> geared
>>>> to develop, what they might emphasize, and such... and there are questions
>>>> of
>>>> what kinds of apps or further libs or frameworks people might want to build
>>>> beyond that, to create some sort of coherent 'environment(s)' and such.
>>>> If you're going to "ask people", then it depends who these people are
>>>> and what kind of audience they are: end-users of apps? end-users of desktop
>>>> environments/shells/whatnot? theme designers (of what)? developers of apps?
>>>> "rich" app developers? etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Forgot to mention a few other relevant ones: developers of web
>>> apis/services?
>>> developers of gfx/canvas libs? developers of gui toolkits? ...
>>>
>>> My questions were directed at the audience consisting of all "E"
>>> developers. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Yes... I mean ask the general random normal desktop users that wander
>> into #e on freenode and ask those kind of questions. After all, theyre
>> the ones that want to use E17. I think developers tend to think like
>> developers and dont tend to see the importance of mundane little
>> things that the average Joe likes/wants. Thats why companies employ
>> market researchers to see whats needed and wanted. Im not saying E
>> needs anyone dedicated to market research, but its something to keep
>> in mind. Personally, I made a couple black themes then people said
>> "You should try making a light theme", so I made Edjy and Cerium.
>> Thats an exmaple of listening to the 'market'.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Ok, sure. But in the case of developers that are building things like
> a gfx lib or a gui toolkit, then their "market" might be other developers,
> not directly end-users-of-some-app.
>
>
>
>> Having said that, I see alot of enthusiasm on random tech forums for
>> EFL and you could see the reaction on the aMSN forums when you
>> compared EFL directly to EFL. People scrambled to get EFL installed
>>
>>
>
> Errr.. I'm not sure I follow you here, but I guess this is a good thing?
>
>
>
>> and were really impressed by how it looked. The biggest problem
>> everyone had (including myself) was building the libraries needed, and
>> I dare say would have been a lot easier if there was a packages
>> release of EFL-Python and all its deps.
>>
>> So maybe a more steady snapshot schedule and perhaps a couple days of
>> *Bug Extermination* before those snapshots so developers and users a
>> like can access it all a little easier?
>>
>> Toma
>>
>>
>
> Maybe what you're trying to get at here is the issue of releasing the
> libs that Vincent and Nathan pointed to, or some of them, and e17 as well.
>
> I personally don't think evas, ecore, edje are ready for 'release' in
> the
> sense of them being so stable that further near-future changes wouldn't break
> anything. Not near really.
> However, that doesn't mean they couldn't be released as they are, and
> leave
> such changes for a future version of those libs. But then I'm not the
> maintainer(s)
> of those libs, and they may disagree with me.
>
By a "future version of those libs" of course I meant a 'major' version
increase.
In any case, if you want to know why I don't think eg. evas is near ready
for a release: it's not just gradients or vgfx stuff, it's possibly smart
classes
and native surfaces that may need breaking changes, it's the soft16 engines
which
are really not ready for use (need to be replaced), it's the fact that having
evas data structures does nothing good for E (I believe they need to be moved
out
of evas and have evas depend on that lib - eina or edata or whatever), and a few
other things.
There is also the option of releasing things as a "pre-alpha" test
version,
and see what the reaction is, and work from there.
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