Ed, is E=MC squared science or engineering? Joe
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:05 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Rendezvous Report Joe, The world expressed as a series of equations is an engineering concept not a scientific one. ********** Ed, is "E=MC" squared science or engineering? In order to be valid we must know all things about every variable of the proposition. ********** Science doesn't have to "know" all things about all the variables- it only needs to build models- then test them, then improve the model, etc. Since we do not know, and perhaps can not know all things about every variable in a complex system, then our scientific understanding will be limited to only the most simple of things. ********** Not sure what you mean.... That is one of the great failures of modern science, perhaps driven by our ability to manipulate numbers so well by computer, is the drive to quantify everything and to simply ignore things that can't be readily quantified. ********** Quantification along with theorizing, model building, testing and modification of theories and models, is what makes science different than other forms of inquiry. There is often the opinion that a bad quantification is better than no numbers at all. That is not true, if the the bad models resulting from bad quantification lead you to the wrong conclusions. ********** You'll only be led to the wrong concludions if you do wrong testing of the models. Sure, numbers along prove nothing but without numbers you can't test the model. Without testing a model you depned on faith. We need to categorize things iteratively, but the arbitrary assignment of numbers to poorly understood phenomena doesn't help. ********** Arbitrary assignment of numbers certainly isn't the method of science. Scientific understanding is based upon a logic structure that may contain equations, but does not need to be numerical to be scientific. ********** Without numbers, you might still come up with good thinking, but it's not likely to qualify as science. I can't think of any science that doesn't depend on math- science is about relationships best expressed numerically. The modeling can exist without numbers at a very early stage when the theory hasn't advanced enough. Requiring a concept be an equation with may quantifiable variables limits the ability to investigate or to even understand many natural phenomena. ********** A concept may be fine without an equation- but a concept does not rise to the level of science without numbers of various sorts, equations, statistics, etc. Mathematical formulas and equations are a tool of scientific investigation, but are not themselves science, no more than a shovel is the same thing as a hole in the ground. ********** Yes, the math is a tool of science- but not much science exists without that tool- it's actually more of a tool, it's the way in which the particular science is expressed to indicate relationships between variables, without which you can't build a model, without which you can't test it, and without testing, you don't have science. Not that I would know, I'm no Phd- I'm only a lowly field forester, what would I know? <G> Joe Ed "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both. " Robert Frost (1874-1963). Mountain Interval. 1920. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Zorzin To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:18 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Rendezvous Report Joe PS: to me, the concept is an equation with many variables- each variable must be quantifiable including values not yet in the marketplace- while social and political values also plugged into the equation must be transparent. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org You are subscribed to the Google Groups "ENTSTrees" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
