Gary:

I enjoy the Arts because I get energy from creative minds.

Tim

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Gary A. Beluzo <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Mea culpa.
>
> Gary
>
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>
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> On Oct 25, 2009, at 12:08 AM, Timothy Zelazo wrote:
>
> I was trying to give my mind a rest today until I read this.
>
> Tim
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 11:43 PM, Gary A. Beluzo <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> I am anticipating that someone will make the argument that humans are
>> "natural' and that MAN-aged systems are thereore natural.  However I use the
>> terms NATURAL and ARTIFICIAL as useful terms to differentate natural systems
>> that are essentially first-order autopoietic and artificial systems that are
>> largely created or maintained by humans exterior to the system.  In a sense
>> these managed systems that are autopoietic in the second order.  Second
>> order in the sense that these managed systems are being controlled to lesser
>> or greater degrees by humans (and therefore are not true first order
>> autopoietic systems.  However because they are managed by first order
>> autopoietic systems (humans) then they themselves are no longer truly
>> natural or of first order.
>>
>> The key to understanding autopoietic is to consider the location or
>> original of the system's control or its "operating manual".  Regarding a
>> natural system, the "operating manual" is the collective genome of the
>> living communiity; the DNA or blueprint for the system is internal to that
>> system and  hence self-created or AUTOPOIETIC.  Managed systems are largely
>> created by DNA that is exterior or outside the system's boundary.
>> According to this logic, automobiles, houses, computers, and managed forests
>> are artificial because that all are created or actively regulated by human
>> hands.
>>
>> By the way, I consider NATURE to be the collective genome of all living
>> systems and their environment.  NATURE is self-creating and self-regulating.
>>  We distinguish humans from nature because NATURE is a complex, dynamic
>> system controlled by unconscious processes, by natural selection.  We
>> appreciate NATURE because it is NOT controlled by us...it is "WILD".  I
>> wouldn't consider a ZOO to be an expression of nature or a natural place
>> since humans decide which animal reproduces with which other and humans are
>> controlling the environment of these animals.  All of us on this list
>> intuitively know the difference between a zoo and  nature, a natural forest
>> and a managed plantation.  The difficulty comes in placing each forest on
>> the NATURAL.............................ARTIFICIAL continuum.
>>
>> Sorry for the rant...
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>  Gary A. Beluzo
>> Professor of Environmental Science
>> Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics
>> Holyoke Community College
>> 303 Homestead Avenue
>> Holyoke, MA 01040
>>
>> [email protected]
>> 413 552-2445
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2009, at 7:07 AM, Joseph Zorzin wrote:
>>
>> That's one of Gary Beluzo's favorite terms and he's one of the few people
>> who understands it and uses it (he may have coined the term) so I'm sure
>> he'll elaborate. I have a sense of the meaning and I kinda like it- I
>> believe for  Gary, it's what happens in old growth forests- to what extent
>> it may be a useful principle in any sort of managed forest is the 60 million
>> dollar question.
>>
>> In particular, the question is interesting regarding forests managed for
>> old growth structures, as described in that brochure.
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Andrew Joslin <[email protected]>
>> *To:* [email protected]
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2009 1:56 PM
>> *Subject:* [ENTS] Re: "Restoring Late-Successional Forest Structure"???
>>
>>
>> Joe, can you get me (us) up-to-speed on the term "autopoietic" as
>> applied to forest ecology? It sounds like you mean self-regenerating or
>> self-maintaining, not sure though.
>> -AJ
>>
>> Joseph Zorzin wrote:
>> >  check out
>> >
>> http://www.masswoods.net/images/stories/pdf/forest_mgr_guide_ls_structure_web.pdf
>> >
>> > comments?
>> >
>> > Gary Beluzo? What say ye about this? Those restored pseudo semi old
>> > growth forests won't be autopoietic?
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > >
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