Jon, I believe that we talked about the book 1492 before. Maybe this was before you joined. I'm sure that someone will be able to dig up page for you and the others that have joined since. Beth
Sent from my iPhone On Nov 27, 2009, at 16:28, jon parker <[email protected]> wrote: I might add one layer of thought to this discussion, which is the idea that many of the unruly forests the European settlers first saw were possibly a direct consequence of the decimation of Native American populations due to introduced diseases that advanced far ahead (and far sooner) of the settlers themselves. Prior to the epidemics, some theories put forth claim that North American forests were heavily managed through a variety of man-assisted processes, fire being the primary tool. The author Thomas Mann wrote a book about the impact of Pre-Columbian people on the New World environment, "1491", which covers theories about America from this point of view. Some excerpts from the book can be found here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200203/mann I read the book and would recommend it, even if I feel that occasionally his case is overstated a bit (I don't really buy that the Amazon is largely an American Indian-influenced ecology, seems to ignore a lot of evolutionary evidence). On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 2:43 AM, DON BERTOLETTE <[email protected]> wrote: Ed/Bob- 1737? I could have said the same thing in SE Kentucky! Working on the Daniel Boone NF, after Ford Motor Company and Peabody Coal had had their way with the land that went to the Redbird Purchase Unit (first step towards becoming a Ranger Station, had to be rehabilitated (yeah, I went through the 60's and know about Arlo Guthrie and what he thought about being rehabilitated) first). I would go the whole day, and not see a hand's worth of sunlight. Heck, I wouldn't even see the ground for hours at a time...no telling how many rattlers and coppermouths I walked within striking distance of! So when travellers went across the Mogollon Plateau (Northern Arizona) three or four horses abreast without large ponderosa pines obstructing their passage (the proverbial open park-like forests), I totally understood what they were getting at. Once I got through high schools version of history, I understood how the pilgrims/explorers wanted to clear deep dark forests...but all that has to do with where you came from...which is along way from universal human experiences... -Don ________________________________ Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:38:33 +0000 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENTS] Historic eastern forest stature Ed, I agree. I wasn't too clear on one point. I certainly wouldn't advocate comparing current old growth sites to the forests on sites that used to be old growth. What I meant was if it is old growth now, such as the Porcupine Mtns State Park, then its appearance now versus the way it looked in the pre-settlement past may not be very different - or at least different in a then versus now way. Lee, help! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Frank" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:45:27 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ENTS] Historic eastern forest stature Bob, Excellent overview of the situation. I would like to point out however that while these are old growth forests that give an example of what once existed in the eastern United States, that these forests are not representative of all of the forest types that once existed. They are examples only of primal forest of the types found in the Adirondacks and the Catskills. A historical account of the primary hemlock dominated forest here in the Allegheny Plateau Region of Pennsylvania reads: According to Conrad Weiser in 1737, "The wood is so thick, that for a mile at a time we could not find a place the size of a hand, where the sunshine would penetrate, even on the clearest day." These forests are dissimilar in may ways to those found in the Catskills and Adirondacks. Similarly there were chestnut dominated forests where upwards of 90% of the tree basal area were American Chestnut trees. These forest are also long gone. There are wide variety of forest types that once covered large areas of the United States that are now all but lost and are not represented by the forests of the Catskills and Adirondacks. I would tend to agree that these remaining sections of forest in the Adirondacks and the Catskills are better analogues of the former forests in the eastern United States than the Bialowieza forest of Poland and Belarus. Bialowieza Forest represents but a single forest type and it consists of trees native to that region rather than the assemblage found here in the United States. Smaller old growth patches and sites, like Cook Forest give the flavor of the variety of the forest types that once occupied other areas of the eastern United States. Still there is an uneasy feeling when visiting them of the limited size they encompass, rather than the immensity of the ancient forests that once covered 90% of the countryside. There is the feeling of bustling humanity and civilization just beyond your view. You can only really capture a portion of the essence of these untrammeled forests if you concentrate on the scene that surrounds you and the details of the forest, rather than the context of the forest in relation to the modern landscape. Happy Thanksgiving Everyone. Ed Frank Check out my new Blog: http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/ (and click on some of the ads) -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] ________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
