Bob: I have not seen any evidence that the char-influenced (i.e. human influenced) soils in the Amazon occupy more than a few percent of the Amazon watershed.
Lee [email protected] wrote: > Jon, > > I would go farther and say Thomas Mann made hefty over-statements, > although unintentionally. Lee Frelich appears to be out in the field, > but if he reads this he can shed additional light on the Amazon debate > and misinterpretations of soil structures and disturbances. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jon parker" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:28:02 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Historic eastern forest stature > > I might add one layer of thought to this discussion, which is the idea > that many of the unruly forests the European settlers first saw were > possibly a direct consequence of the decimation of Native American > populations due to introduced diseases that advanced far ahead (and > far sooner) of the settlers themselves. Prior to the epidemics, some > theories put forth claim that North American forests were heavily > managed through a variety of man-assisted processes, fire being the > primary tool. The author Thomas Mann wrote a book about the impact of > Pre-Columbian people on the New World environment, "1491", which > covers theories about America from this point of view. Some excerpts > from the book can be found here: > http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200203/mann > > I read the book and would recommend it, even if I feel that > occasionally his case is overstated a bit (I don't really buy that the > Amazon is largely an American Indian-influenced ecology, seems to > ignore a lot of evolutionary evidence). > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 2:43 AM, DON BERTOLETTE > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ed/Bob- > > 1737? > > I could have said the same thing in SE Kentucky! Working on the Daniel > > Boone NF, after Ford Motor Company and Peabody Coal had had their > way with > > the land that went to the Redbird Purchase Unit (first step towards > becoming > > a Ranger Station, had to be rehabilitated (yeah, I went through > the 60's and > > know about Arlo Guthrie and what he thought about being rehabilitated) > > first). > > > > I would go the whole day, and not see a hand's worth of sunlight. > Heck, I > > wouldn't even see the ground for hours at a time...no telling how many > > rattlers and coppermouths I walked within striking distance of! > > > > So when travellers went across the Mogollon Plateau (Northern > Arizona) three > > or four horses abreast without large ponderosa pines obstructing their > > passage (the proverbial open park-like forests), I totally > understood what > > they were getting at. > > > > Once I got through high schools version of history, I understood how the > > pilgrims/explorers wanted to clear deep dark forests...but all that > has to > > do with where you came from...which is along way from universal human > > experiences... > > -Don > > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:38:33 +0000 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Historic eastern forest stature > > > > Ed, > > I agree. I wasn't too clear on one point. I certainly wouldn't advocate > > comparing current old growth sites to the forests on sites that used > to be > > old growth. What I meant was if it is old growth now, such as the > Porcupine > > Mtns State Park, then its appearance now versus the way it looked in the > > pre-settlement past may not be very different - or at least > different in a > > then versus now way. Lee, help! > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Edward Frank" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:45:27 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > > Subject: Re: [ENTS] Historic eastern forest stature > > > > Bob, > > > > Excellent overview of the situation. I would like to point out > however that > > while these are old growth forests that give an example of what once > existed > > in the eastern United States, that these forests are not > representative of > > all of the forest types that once existed. They are examples only > of primal > > forest of the types found in the Adirondacks and the Catskills. A > > historical account of the primary hemlock dominated forest here in the > > Allegheny Plateau Region of Pennsylvania reads: > > > > > > According to Conrad Weiser in 1737, "The wood is so thick, that for > a mile > > at a time we could not find a place the size of a hand, where the > sunshine > > would penetrate, even on the clearest day." > > > > These forests are dissimilar in may ways to those found in the > Catskills and > > Adirondacks. Similarly there were chestnut dominated forests where > upwards > > of 90% of the tree basal area were American Chestnut trees. These > forest > > are also long gone. There are wide variety of forest types that once > > covered large areas of the United States that are now all but lost > and are > > not represented by the forests of the Catskills and Adirondacks. > > > > I would tend to agree that these remaining sections of forest in the > > Adirondacks and the Catskills are better analogues of the former > forests in > > the eastern United States than the Bialowieza forest of Poland and > Belarus. > > Bialowieza Forest represents but a single forest type and it consists of > > trees native to that region rather than the assemblage found here in the > > United States. Smaller old growth patches and sites, like Cook > Forest give > > the flavor of the variety of the forest types that once occupied > other areas > > of the eastern United States. Still there is an uneasy feeling when > visiting > > them of the limited size they encompass, rather than the immensity > of the > > ancient forests that once covered 90% of the countryside. There is the > > feeling of bustling humanity and civilization just beyond your > view. You > > can only really capture a portion of the essence of these untrammeled > > forests if you concentrate on the scene that surrounds you and the > details > > of the forest, rather than the context of the forest in relation to the > > modern landscape. > > > > Happy Thanksgiving Everyone. > > > > Ed Frank > > > > > > Check out my new Blog: http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/ (and > click > > on some of the ads) > > -- > > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > > Send email to [email protected] > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > > Send email to [email protected] > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > ________________________________ > > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > > > -- > > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > > Send email to [email protected] > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] > -- > Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org > Send email to [email protected] > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en > To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
