I appreciate your insight. We then have to abstract, a beginning beyond which we have no definition or power to fathom---in that context we can then bask in the glory of not all knowing---since the search for the beginning will become a futile exercise.
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > If before time there was indeed time, (as Awori states), then there > was no "before time." > It depends on one's concept of time. > "Internal Universal" time is restricted to the observed universe, > and is defined by the events takng place in the observed universe. > External time supposes a context larger than the observed universe, > and would encompass > all alternate forms of exitence, including parallel universes, and > forms of > existence for which we have no concepts at all. > We simply cannot impose our own definition of time into a larger > context > than the observed universe, since we do not have the necessary > conceptual framework. > Therefore, we are stuck with internal universal time, which began with > the existence of events in the observed universe. > The idea of time before then is speculative, since we cannot fathom > what events might have > occurred within a primordial point particle. > We cannot even envision what, if anything, goes on inside a black > hole. > Is there time there? We have no basis for discussing that question. > So therefore, our concept of time begins at the Big Bang, or perhaps > an instant before. There is a grey area there, but we are stuck with > it. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Apr 21, 10:42 am, awori achoka <[email protected]> wrote: > > This is purely philosophical---before time, there was time--otherwise > "the > > period before time began" would not have been there!. Because a period > > denotes time. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > > > In a sense, one can argue that the beginning of time was the beginning > > > of everything. > > > But that is because semantically, we identify "beginning" with time. > > > Therefore, by definition, nothing can have happened before time began. > > > > > But conceptually, we can say that if time began, then something must > > > have caused time to begin. > > > So even though technically there was no "before" time, > > > the initiation of time must have happened "before" time began. > > > > > We should not get caught up in the semantics. > > > > > If we accept that the universe has order and structure, then we must > > > accept that there is some organizing principle underlying that order > > > and structure. > > > > > That organizing principle can be likened to a molecule of DNA. > > > Let's use human DNA as our analogy. > > > > > DNA is not the human. It is the coded instruction set for > > > "building" (so to speak) a human body. > > > Within that coded instruction set is the organizing principle that > > > results in the human body. > > > > > In a similar manner, we can discern that there must be a coded > > > instruction set, > > > we might liken it to a computer program, that organizes the cosmos. > > > > > But just as DNA is not a human body, so also we can reasonably assume > > > that the > > > organizing principle is not the same as the "finished product," the > > > cosmos. > > > The organizing principle would be as different from the cosmos as DNA > > > is from a human body. > > > > > The organizing principle need not obey the laws of cause and effect, > > > the laws of sequence, the laws of time. > > > Indeed, even human logic itself is encoded in the principle, and > > > therefore > > > the organizing principle is not subject to, not subordinate to, > > > the human intellect. > > > > > We can only conclude then, that we have utterly no method of ever > > > understanding the > > > organizing principle unless certain conditions are met: > > > > > The organizing principle is intelligent and purposeful. > > > It reveals itself to us, at least in part. > > > It bestows on us the capacity to understand what it reveals to us. > > > > > If this sounds like theology, it is because it deals with ultimates > > > and absolutes. > > > But it also shows us that while ultimates and absolutes are forever > > > beyond the ken of the human mind, > > > it is entirely reasonable to propose that there is an ineffable > > > essence to all reality, and that it is entirely reasonable to > > > attribute intelligence and purpose to it (after all, these exist in > > > our finite beings). > > > > > All of which impose upon us one critical attribute for which each of > > > us must strive--- > > > humility. > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > On Apr 19, 5:42 am, awori achoka <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > A particle of what? In what context did it exist---in a timeless > context? > > > My > > > > argument is that---everything began at a point--a point of time. > First > > > there > > > > was time then an event---the event was the beginning. > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Robert <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > In the beginning there was a primordial point particle. > > > > > This was BEFORE there was time, space and energy. > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 10:06 am, awori achoka <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > For the sake of debate----in the beginning there was time and > then > > > space > > > > > and > > > > > > energy followed. The rest is history. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Robert <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > What is the Organizing Principle of the Universe? > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups > > > > > "Epistemology" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<epistemology%[email protected]> > <epistemology%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > <epistemology%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > . > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > nubiaafrika.blogspot.com > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Epistemology" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]<epistemology%[email protected]> > <epistemology%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > . > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// > > > groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Epistemology" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]<epistemology%[email protected]> > <epistemology%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en. > > > > -- > > > > nubiaafrika.blogspot.com > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Epistemology" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<epistemology%[email protected]> > . > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// > groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Epistemology" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<epistemology%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en. > > -- nubiaafrika.blogspot.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. 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