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Syd.
My information is from a phone call with a
representative of Univair that I demanded to talk to after the young person that
was answering my phone call showed a significant lack of understanding what an
Ercoupe is and how it looks like, e.g dual rudders.
It was before the center section AD was in effect
and still in discussion and the Gent reported that Univair already had
finished a hand full brand new center spars. This is what they hoped for the AD
will bring in - a lot of rotted center spars. Well, it is
meanwhile 3-4 years later and it might be that Univair sold out all these
spars since they are such a bargain to buy and they ran out of wing attachment
hardware. But I doubt that even the fools at Univair would have a problem to
operate a drill and a saw and other machinery to create a flat piece of steel
with a few holes in it.
I am speechless.
Zodiac is selling a kit for a plane.(the
601) This kit includes the whole airframe - a center spar AND the rest of
the plane . The sell it for slightly more than 15k. Brand new! Wing attachment
points included.
I shut up now. I am just offering my opinion.
It is NOT my intention to insult or lecture
anybody.
Hartmut
----- Original Message -----From: Sydney CohenSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:27 PMSubject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] Spars----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Hartmut,
I'm done arguing this subject. I got my information from Mike Wotovich, who is an engineer at Univair and is a friend of mine. I don't know who the person is who you got your information from. Enough said.
Syd
Hartmut Beil wrote:
----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Syd.Look at my replies in the text below.----- Original Message -----From: Sydney CohenSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:15 AMSubject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] Spars----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Hartmut, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for them. I just would like to be realistic about it.1.First, they had to come up with new tooling to make the extrusions. ---> No they don't . They are buying parts from a provider AND this does NOT need to be expensive.Lots of reverse engineering, since the original tooling was gone years ago. ---> Univair never did extrusions, they had been in the business of tooling.Then the extrusions have to be bent to the proper "V." --> Now that is a piece of cake. You can get them cut AND bent from the extrusion manufacturer.This is difficult, considering the spring back of the aluminum.---> Aluminum is the easiest metal to work with.The bent extrusions then have to be milled to the proper dimensions. ---> Not even true. What has to be made to the proper dimensions are the wing attachment points.and for that you have the original JIG that Univair took over with the TC.Then they had to prove to the FAA that the new spars were equal to or better than the original ones. Believe me, this is very costly and time consuming. ---> Time consuming YES, Costly NO! I wrote an article about Kent Tarver, who re-started the Aeromatic Propeller production. He had to work on a recertification for the propeller blades. Since the original stock was long gone, he needed new material to cut the blades from. He found a reasonable priced provider, dealt with the FAA in a constructive manner - and had the blades aproved a year after I did my article about him.Believe me, you can order any extrusion from the right manufacturer for a fraction of the cost Univair is overcharging us. Proving that the produced parts are as good or better is a burden, but it can be done when in the right hands. The fact that UNivair was running out on spar extrusions is known since the mid nineties. I'd say plain mis-management.Besides all this, they have to pay quite a bit for liability insurance on the parts they manufacture and sell. ---> Don't they already? I question the numbers.Also included in the $9000 or so price is the cost of drilling out the rivets from your old wing attach fittings without damaging them, magnifluxing them to assure that they are ok, and setting the 5/16" rivets in them without upsetting the rivets. --> NOT true. >From my interview with the gent, you'll get a complete new spar. You have to because they way its produced, it needs to be put into the JIGand hangs on the wing attachement fittings.I'm sure that Univair invested far more than $100,000 to gear up for this production run --> NOT true. I spoke to the guy at Univair and he spoke about 5-8 center spars they made. ONLY a governmental institution would be able to spend a 100k on that., and it will be a long time before they see a cent of profit from the sales. ---> True! Overpriced as the spars are already, Univair priced itself out of business. It is cheaper to buy an Ercoupe project with a good spar and slaughter it.I'm actually surprised that the spars are only about $9000 each. ---> really?
Syd----- Original Message -----From: Sydney CohenSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:15 AMSubject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] Spars----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Hartmut, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for them. I just would like to be realistic about it. First, they had to come up with new tooling to make the extrusions. Lots of reverse engineering, since the original tooling was gone years ago. Then the extrusions have to be bent to the proper "V." This is difficult, considering the spring back of the aluminum. The bent extrusions then have to be milled to the proper dimensions. Then they had to prove to the FAA that the new spars were equal to or better than the original ones. Believe me, this is very costly and time consuming. Besides all this, they have to pay quite a bit for liability insurance on the parts they manufacture and sell. Also included in the $9000 or so price is the cost of drilling out the rivets from your old wing attach fittings without damaging them, magnifluxing them to assure that they are ok, and setting the 5/16" rivets in them without upsetting the rivets. I'm sure that Univair invested far more than $100,000 to gear up for this production run, and it will be a long time before they see a cent of profit from the sales. I'm actually surprised that the spars are only about $9000 each.
Syd
Hartmut Beil wrote:
----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Syd.Admitted I am exagurating a bit here, but How the heck do you explain the newly built 10k center spar?What are the costs involved?They've got the jig, the steel and aluminum pieces you need are worth max. $250. Now add the costs for a worker that rivets the stuff together. 4 hours of work @ 100 bucks an hour, add costs for shipping and other expenses - a center spar should not cost more than 1500 Dollars to produce.I really would like to know where the costs factor comes in here. What is up with this company? I am having the feeling they are overpricing us because some executives are working on their early retirement.Hartmut----- Original Message -----From: Sydney CohenSent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:31 PMSubject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] Header Fuel Tank AD 55-22-02, part 2----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----Not true. I've been through their factory twice. They are producing many new parts. Not all of them, but many of them.
Syd
Hartmut Beil wrote:
Univair is just selling the parts left over from the 50 year old stock for ever rising prices.============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm
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