Michael Turner may have observed that, in an effort to maintain our level of discourse, I have abstained from responding to his prior attacks. The religious fanatic/cultist argument, however, has worn. More importantly, it is not persuasive. If indeed Mr. Turner's definition of a cultist is one who is optimistic about the future of humanity's ability or the wonders of our unexplored universe, then I proudly fit that definition. I suppose Carl Sagen would as well. My definition, however, would be somewhat more conventional. For some thoughts on interstellar travel outside of the cultist community, see here.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/html/warp/possible.htm While I will concede that "visibly on our horizon" may not be supportable by current science, the point is the same. Interstellar travel will come. This, and many things that may seem like magic or fantasy now, will not seem that way in our future. Back to Europa: I applaud the scientific community for the hard and practical work many are doing every day to find real answers to what, if anything, may be there. Please don't become too practical, however, to maintain healthy level of fanciful speculation when you take a break from doing hard science. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: No life detected in Atacama Desert in Chile > I wonder whether Galileo may have found interstellar travel, now visibly on our horizon, > similarly inconceivable For all I know, he was more optimistic about it than we are now. After all, Giordano Bruno was very optimistic about the chances for civilizations beyond our solar system -- so much so that he asserted it as an absolute certainty, which I think is more than any rational SETI enthusiast would do. (Interstellar travel as "now visibly on our horizon."?! Which direction should I look?) > or what Thomas Jefferson would say to the improbable suggestion of an > untethered book like machine with a display linked to the four corners > of the globe. Probably something like "I *knew* Franklin's experiments with electricity would come to something, someday." There isn't anything in laptop computers with WiFi cards that would have defied the laws of physics of their time (such as it was.) Jefferson was, after all, an inventor. And in that time, naval architects who criticized American transatlantic ship design for their planned obsolescence were told that technology was improving so fast that designing ships to last more than about 4 years was simply silly. They were hardly unacquainted with speed of technological change. > My aim is not to be contrary, but to point out that our conception of > what is possible should not be limited by the limits of our current > information and understanding. Sometime in the early 70s, it was conceivable, as Eric Drexler and others proposed, that weightlessness would extend human life. Now we know that it's a health hazard. There was nothing wrong with this hypothesis in terms of the "current information and understanding" of the time -- but there is something wrong with not recognizing that it was optimistic. Even when you limit your conception of what is possible to current information and understanding, you still end up with many hypotheses that don't pan out. If you don't put such limits on your speculations, well ... you might as well go write Riverworld novels. Or if you're really ambitious, go start a cult based on interstellar communication with pure energy beings who were civilized long before human beings evolved -- if you're successful (and some have been), you'll make a lot more money than Philip Jose Farmer ever did. -michael turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -----Original Message----- > From: Schmidt Mickey Civ 50 ES/CC [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:06 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: No life detected in Atacama Desert in Chile > > > > If we are looking for non-corporeal life forms, I think we may be relying > upon science fiction a little too much. It is true we don't know every thing > about nature but one of the necessary properties of living things is that it > must use energy and release energy (metabolize). It is hard to imagine a > non-physical entity being able to "gather" energy and make use of it to > maintain itself or to reproduce or even protect itself. It is also difficult > to imagine intellectual activity occurring without a structure of sorts to > maintain connections and memory. > > I find the whole idea highly unlikely. > > Mickey D. Schmidt, > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ingrassia, John R. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: No life detected in Atacama Desert in Chile > > > I agree. As a non-scientist watching eagerly from the sidelines, I wonder > why we even start with the proposition that 'life' would have to be physical > in nature at all, rather than some form of energy, or other as yet > undiscovered component of our universe. I realize that the physical, > organic, carbon based beings may be easiest for us to discover, but surely > we don't think that that's everything, do we? > > > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > > > > _______________________ > Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments may be legally privileged and confidential. If you are not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. 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