Hi John,
As an EV owner and an ISO participant, I'm working to make sure that it
works to everyone's benefit. Can't say more than that right now, as
everything is all muddled up. :) (situation normal).
Cheers, Peter
On 1/1/14, 3:13 PM, JOHN OCONNOR wrote:
V2G is best suited to providing regulation support and to a lesser degree
something called reserve. Regulation is the change in energy supplied
(increases and decreases) on a 3-5 second basis to balance gen with load.
Reserve is another service that v2g or utility scale batteries could be used.
Reserve is actually 'capacity to produce energy' that can be brought on-line
within 10 or 15 min. These products or services are acquired/or supplied by you
areas balancing authority.
In The US and Canada most people live in an area that has an 'independent
system operator (ISO) or 'regional transmission organization, (RTO) which are
responsible for providing both regulation and reserve (CAISO most of California
, ISO-NE all of New England , MISO many Midwest states, ERCOT most of Texas,
NYISO NY State and PJM Interconnection mid- Atlantic states over to mid-west)
These organizations have a central market for energy, and usually for
regulation and reserve. If batteries are used for regulation they would be
charged and discharged to follow the second to second changes in load. If used
for reserve they would only be discharged if necessary, which is generally when
some generator on the system shuts off unexpectedly or a transmission line goes
out. Then they would be used as a replacement energy source (rules vary but the
discharge would be for 1 hour I think it is).
Standards / rules exist for the provision of these services and any changes to
the rules require approval by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (this
does not always apply for municipal utilities and for ERCOT)
It is these organizations that are likely to be the ones that will be
incorporating these new technologies into 'The Grid' and most have committees
that can include advocates for sensible rules that would make financial sense
for battery owners.
John
(Former employee of ISO-NE)
On Jan 1, 2014, at 7:08 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
Al,
I have been interested in Vehicle to Grid (V2G) since about 2005 when I
bought a converted US Electricar S10 from 1994 which was commissioned at
Californian PG&E by Wavedriver in 1995 to show and experiment with V2G
in
a real road-legal EV.
I agree that it will be the challenge to get the majority of EVs to be
plugged in (grid-connected) at the moment that the grid needs support
and you are also right that the effect on EVs will not be a large charge
drained from the EV battery bank (like all the naysayers are so quick to
call out - what if I need to go home and my battery is empty? Well, it
will not be. You are in control and you set the minimum charge level you
need for your needs and the V2G will never let the battery go below that
level. In fact, V2G will typically drain very little from the car
battery since it is more about stabilizing the grid (short bursts of
higher power until the next power plant has ramped up) than that it is
about a lot of energy, so no long-term draining of your battery).
What I don't agree with is that V2G can actually lower the peak demand
from businesses in the same way that it can stabilize the grid and at a
minimum the V2G control can avoid raising the peak demand even while
plenty EVs are plugged in, simply by throttling the chargers back during
the moments of high demand and giving more power when demand falls
again, so it is not costing the business extra on their peak power bill
to have EVs charging, even when those EVs are not (yet) V2G capable.
If the business does invest in V2G capable EVs or installs a fixed
battery bank for grid support, then it can actually lower its own peak
demand.
Earlier in the morning as soon as EVs are plugged in, the demand is
usually lower so the EVs can charge full bore until their batteries are
above the level that the users have selected as minimum charge level.
The, as soon as the business' demand peaks, the EVs (or local battery
storage) can be instructed to deliver a certain amount of power back to
shave the peak off that local demand by the business. That typically
lasts only a short time, seconds or maximum a few minutes because it is
often the starting of motors or similar inrush effects that cause the
peak. That means that the batteries might lose a few percent of charge
at max during those peaks and that energy meeds to be replenished slowly
during the periods that the business is not drawing peak power.
Since each modern EV is capable of charging in the order of 10kW power,
the V2G capability will be in the same order and so a bank of about 10
EVs should be able to shave an unwanted peak of up to 100kW off a
business' power bill. That alone might make it worthwhile to invest in
V2G chargers for the business and either buy V2G company cars or
encourage employees to get V2G capable EVs and allow them to charge at
work for free or even give an incentive (money) for the service
provided.
I understand the concern that V2G might mean more cycles on the battery
pack of the vehicle, but seeing that the typical use of V2G is a high
power burst of short duration, it is equivalent to a single acceleration
and subsequent braking in the normal driving of the car, something that
you do hundreds of times during a trip. It is not that each V2G action
is a full charge cycle.
It uses a small amount of energy from the battery (at higher power) in a
range of SoC (State of Charge) where the battery is little affected by
the change, so these micro-cycles typically have little effect on the
wear of the battery, since battery wear is usually greatest near the
ends (min and max) of charge level. V2G will preferably happen at charge
levels where the battery is little affected. For example if the minimum
charge a driver selects for his V2G EV is 70% to get home and do
errands, then the V2G system might first charge the battery to for
example 75% and all the V2G interaction in the afternoon might happen at
the charge level between that 75% and 70%. Or it might even happen
around the 50% charge level because the user has not arrived before the
V2G could charge higher but the 70% charge level is only needed by 7PM
so between 5 and 7PM there is plenty of time to bring the level from 50
to above 70%.
Note that the user of the EV is in control. If he selects that he needs
100% charge level all the time, then the V2G system will never loan
energy from his battery, the only thing that the smart grid can do at
that time is to optimize how to throttle other users so this user
receives his max charge charge power as quickly as possible. It might
also mean that he receives a higher power bill than others who select
that they need full charge only after a certain time, so the system can
look at the price of power and charge only when it can lead to the
lowest power bill and if the user selects that he likes a target charge
level of 80% but can allow the car to go down to 60% charge level at any
time, then the V2G system might charge his vehicle in the morning hours
to his desired 80% but use some percent of his charge during the
afternoon peaks and if the price drops enough towards the evening to
make it worthwhile, he might find his car charged to 80% again by the
end of the day. And he might find a surplus on his power bill due to the
service provided at the peak rates while charging at low rates.
As you can see, there is need for a smart grid including an
identification of the EV (or at least the owner) in the same way as
today - by using an RFID card to start the V2G charger. But there is
also need for communication between car and charger to transfer the user
selections and the actual SoC of the car, as well as the desired power
flow between charger and car at every instant to utilize the best price
of power consumed/generated.
I *do* see a good future of V2G simply to utilize a more and more
abundant resource (battery power) that is under-utilized at the moment.
NOTE that every Leaf with a QC port can participate in V2G if they
wished.
Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Al
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 7:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: V2G project pays plugin owners for eating
their pack cycle-life
V2G is one of those things that theoretically could be done, but is too
cumbersome and expensive to actually implement. Remember, V2G is not
about
peak shaving as much as short term fluctuations. The biggest hurdle I
see is
the fact that almost all EV's will be sitting at work all day, not
connected
to the grid. I don't think you are going to find too many businesses
putting
in banks of high power interconnects for EV's, especially since
businesses
are charged for peak demand, DOH!
Al
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