On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote:
Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not
going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a
garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer
sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have
made some improvements.
Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements to
the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&__hilit=+battery+update#p374490
Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5
years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have
a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the
US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less
if the car is efficient.
Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf
It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the next
five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price will remain
volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity prices are generally
lower, less volatile and costs generally go up more slowly. Some folks
lock in a low electric cost by installing solar panels. It also helps
that electric cars are more efficient than gas cars.
At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields
a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes
trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5
years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years.
According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select
cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss
of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and
under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here
is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up.
AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate:
By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and
temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I haven't
heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that will happen
someday.
Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement
(today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you need)
is about $250 per KWh, which is actually a market leading low price. The
price could come down further and/or the available capacity of the pack
could go up by the time a typical LEAF pack would need to be replaced.
If ROI is your primary consideration when purchasing a car then you
would want to make a complete accounting, including all of the
maintenance and repair expenses over whatever you consider to be the
car's useful life. Plus fuel costs.
I would put battery replacement in the maintenance/repair category.
There isn't much else in that category for the LEAF since it obviously
doesn't require a gas car's typical engine/transmission/fuel
system/exhaust system parts-fest. With regen, the LEAF doesn't even use
the brake pads much.
The LEAF is widely available today, has a decent feature set, and an
improved battery from at least 2013 forward. Electric vehicles offer
important advantages, so I'm glad it's available along with other
choices. It's the current best-selling BEV for a variety of reasons.
Only you know what works for you.
Cheers,
-Jamie
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Jamie K via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org
<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:
On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
% Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently %
Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe.
AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier
models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few
times since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation.
Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement.
Replacements are with the so-called "Lizard" battery pack, which is
reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates.
To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of
the old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for
earlier 2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total).
Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000
miles against capacity loss.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&__hilit=+battery+update#p374490
<http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&hilit=+battery+update#p374490>
Cheers,
-Jamie
https://3d-car-shows.com/__nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-__outperforms-cynics-critics-__and-alternatives/
<https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/>
NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND
ALTERNATIVES
March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira
[image
https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-__content/uploads/2015/03/__nissan-leaf.jpg
<https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg>
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=6V1bJJwJhEg
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg>
Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and
Alternatives
Nissan Europe Mar 17, 2015
- Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010
- More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to
industry
averages
§ Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with
more than
30,000 sold across Europe
]
- Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate
across Europe
- More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to
industry
averages
- Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car,
with over
165,000 sold globally
Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than
35,000
European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF,
proprietary data
released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent
of its
battery units remain entirely fit for purpose.
The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that
“batteries
would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that
“high-mileage
LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in
the first
year of ownership.”
In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than
0.01
percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the
equivalent
industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional
combustion engines.
To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology,
Nissan tracked
down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still
enjoying fault-free
motoring in her LEAF three years on:
Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel
Fully Charged,
Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There
was a lot of
apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but
with sales
climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths
continue to be
regurgitated today.”
The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33
percent increase
in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a
quarter of the
burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales.
Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in
Europe,
comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery
faults in our
vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue
with that.
“The battery technology is just part of our success story. With
over 165,000
customers globally, it’s clear that we’re not the only people
who are
thrilled by the success of this state-of-the-art technology.”
With just three main components – the on-board charger, inverter
and motor –
the Nissan LEAF is also 40 percent cheaper to maintain compared
to petrol or
diesel-powered alternatives.
The Nissan LEAF launched over four years ago in 2010, as one of
the first
mass-market, pure-electric vehicles. It is now the best-selling
electric
vehicle in history, with over 165,000 LEAF vehicles sold
globally, more than
35,000 of which have been sold in Europe; clocking up an
impressive one
billion kilometres worldwide.
[© 3d-car-shows.com <http://3d-car-shows.com>]
...
http://www.theautochannel.com/__news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-__leaf-battery-reliably-__outperforms-cynics-critics-__and-alternatives.html
<http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives.html>
Nissan LEAF Battery Reliably Outperforms Cynics, Critics and
Alternatives
23 March 2015
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/__news/business/nissan-sends-__powerful-message-to-those-who-__doubt-electric-vehicles-1-__7171329
<http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-sends-powerful-message-to-those-who-doubt-electric-vehicles-1-7171329>
Nissan sends powerful message to those who doubt electric vehicles
Fiona Thompson 23 March 2015
NISSAN’S Leaf batteries have shown they go the distance after
less than 0.01
per cent of those installed in 35,000 cars have failed.
Five years after the first models were built, data has shown
99.9per cent of
the battery units made remain fit for purpose, with just three
breaking
during that time.
It is said to be a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide
figure for
defects affecting traditional combustion engines.
To prove their long-term reliability, Nissan tracked down the
owner of the
model which appeared in Top Gear’s test drive and electric
vehicle advocate
and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert
Llewellyn, who owns
a Leaf.
He said: “This comes as no surprise.
“There was a lot of apprehension about electric technology in
the beginning,
but with sales climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how
these myths
continue to be regurgitated today.”
Nissan says the Leaf has smashed its sales record with a 33
percent increase
in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of
the market
with 15,098 sales.
Jean-Pierre Diernaz, director of electric vehicles for Nissan in
Europe,
said: “The facts speak for themselves.
“The rate of battery faults in our vehicles is negligible, even
the most
ardent critic cannot argue with that.
Nissan’s Sunderland plant produces the Qashqai, Note and Juke
and the Leaf,
with the production of lithium-ion batteries for electric
vehicles starting
in 2012.
[© sunderlandecho.com <http://sunderlandecho.com>]
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?p=220120
<http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220120>
Tony Williams' updated battery capacity loss event chronology
...
https://www.google.com/search?__q=leaf+electric+car+battery+__life+heat
<https://www.google.com/search?q=leaf+electric+car+battery+life+heat>
Leaf pack dies premature death in U.S. heat
https://www.google.com/#q=__nissan+leaf+electric+car+__battery+life
<https://www.google.com/#q=nissan+leaf+electric+car+battery+life>
...
http://electric-vehicle-__discussion-list.413529.n4.__nabble.com/template/__NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search___page&node=413529&query=__subject%3Aevln+subject%3Aleaf+__NOT+subject%3Are&days=0&sort=__date
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Read more Leaf EVLN items on evdl
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