These two PDF files from the Enerdel website provide lots of info on the cells:
http://goo.gl/Gy3Quc http://goo.gl/PsCqep Phil H. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > My new edition of Linden's Handbook of Batteries lists LFP as 3.45V > nominal. On the ENERDEL website is no information at all about the anode > chemistry. I was making my best guess. > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Stephen <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Not sure why you think Enerdel could be LiFePO4 (3.3V nom)... They > > are LiMn2O4 (LMO). Nice batteries. > > > > Regards, > > Stephen > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. > Do > >> they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? > >> > >> I downloaded the spec sheet. > >> > >> http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf > >> > >> What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page > >> says: > >> " > >> > >> - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of > >> initial > >> > >> capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C > >> " > >> > >> They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the > >> nominal > >> voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a > guess > >> - they don't reveal it. > >> > >> LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures > than > >> other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating > >> deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C > line > >> that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of > >> all information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region > >> where deterioration accelerates. > >> > >> The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of > >> capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that > >> information. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: > >> > >> They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour > start > >> to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they > take > >> it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must > >> be > >> capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many > >> people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and > >> we push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The > >> video I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discuss > >> es > >> this in some detail. > >> > >> If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance > of > >> knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC y > >> ou can have far few > >> er > >> cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged state and > >> temperature > >> - nothing much else matters > >> . But > >> , > >> if the idea is to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to > >> operate the cells, then you run cycles like they have > >> ( > >> and most everyone else in the business). > >> > >> I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the > bad > >> old ways of testing cells. > >> > >> The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state > >> a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is > achieving > >> a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that > >> temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell > quality > >> of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions > the > >> cells deteriorate. > >> > >> You could take the same physical cells and use > >> different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no > >> difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could > >> tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to > go. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hello EVDL, > >> > > >> > EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been > to > >> > their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product > >> just > >> > about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message > >> makes to > >> > thru to the board. > >> > Regards, > >> > Jeff Major > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be > >> > someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. > >> > > >> > regards > >> > hg > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > >> > From: "Michael Ross via EV" <[email protected]> > >> > To: "Mike" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" < > >> > [email protected]> > >> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences > >> > > >> > Mike, > >> > > >> > Caveat emptor. > >> > > >> > A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that > tells > >> me > >> > they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I > >> > can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. > >> > > >> > To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, > >> and > >> > have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision > >> > coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life > >> spec > >> > that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer > >> because > >> > it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out > more > >> > about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it > around > >> > on thes forum. > >> > > >> > They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are > >> > made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that > >> > manufacturing. > >> > > >> > They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how > they > >> > could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. > >> > > >> > There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. > All > >> > CAD renderings - not a good sign. > >> > http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ > >> > shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and > >> > ENERDAL log. > >> > > >> > Call me suspicious. > >> > > >> > They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese > manufacturer, > >> or > >> > who knows what. > >> > > >> > Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? > A > >> > happy customer you can call? > >> > > >> > > >> > Mike Ross > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to > use. > >> > > Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan > >> battery > >> > > threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, > (1) > >> > They > >> > > are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady > >> > declining > >> > > ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. > >> I am > >> > > well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they > >> have > >> > > recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 > >> AHrs. > >> > > So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > >> > Thomas A. Edison > >> > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > >> > > >> > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > >> > *Warren Buffet* > >> > > >> > Michael E. Ross > >> > (919) 585-6737 Land > >> > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > >> > Phone > >> > (919) 631-1451 Cell > >> > > >> > [email protected] > >> > <[email protected]> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> > URL: < > >> > > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > > >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> > URL: < > >> > > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> > URL: < > >> > > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > >> Thomas A. Edison > >> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > >> > >> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > >> *Warren Buffet* > >> > >> Michael E. Ross > >> (919) 585-6737 Land > >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > >> Phone > >> (919) 631-1451 Cell > >> > >> [email protected] > >> <[email protected]> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/74c22524/attachment.htm > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > >> > > > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. Edison > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > [email protected] > <[email protected]> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/ddf1713f/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/2d77ee15/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
