Not sure why you think Enerdel could be LiFePO4 (3.3V nom)... They are LiMn2O4 (LMO). Nice batteries.
Regards, Stephen On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. Do > they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? > > I downloaded the spec sheet. > > http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf > > What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page > says: > " > > - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of initial > capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C > " > > They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the nominal > voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a guess > - they don't reveal it. > > LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures than > other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating > deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C line > that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of > all information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region > where deterioration accelerates. > > The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of > capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that > information. > > > > > I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: > > They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start > to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take > it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must be > capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many > people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and > we push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The > video I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discuss > es > this in some detail. > > If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance of > knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC y > ou can have far few > er > cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged state and > temperature > - nothing much else matters > . But > , > if the idea is to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to > operate the cells, then you run cycles like they have > ( > and most everyone else in the business). > > I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad > old ways of testing cells. > > The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state > a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving > a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that > temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality > of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the > cells deteriorate. > > You could take the same physical cells and use > different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no > difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could > tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to go. > > Mike > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hello EVDL, > > > > EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to > > their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product > just > > about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message makes > to > > thru to the board. > > Regards, > > Jeff Major > > > > > > > > On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be > > someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. > > > > regards > > hg > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michael Ross via EV" <[email protected]> > > To: "Mike" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" < > > [email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences > > > > Mike, > > > > Caveat emptor. > > > > A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells > me > > they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I > > can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. > > > > To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, > and > > have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision > > coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life > spec > > that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer > because > > it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more > > about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it around > > on thes forum. > > > > They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are > > made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that > > manufacturing. > > > > They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how they > > could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. > > > > There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All > > CAD renderings - not a good sign. > > http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ > > shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and > > ENERDAL log. > > > > Call me suspicious. > > > > They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, > or > > who knows what. > > > > Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A > > happy customer you can call? > > > > > > Mike Ross > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use. > > > Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan battery > > > threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) > > They > > > are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady > > declining > > > ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. I > am > > > well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they > have > > > recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 AHrs. > > > So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? > > > _______________________________________________ > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > > Thomas A. Edison > > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > > *Warren Buffet* > > > > Michael E. Ross > > (919) 585-6737 Land > > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > > Phone > > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > > > [email protected] > > <[email protected]> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. Edison > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > [email protected] > <[email protected]> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/74c22524/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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