My new edition of Linden's Handbook of Batteries lists LFP as 3.45V nominal. On the ENERDEL website is no information at all about the anode chemistry. I was making my best guess.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Stephen <stephen.holl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Not sure why you think Enerdel could be LiFePO4 (3.3V nom)... They > are LiMn2O4 (LMO). Nice batteries. > > Regards, > Stephen > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > >> I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. Do >> they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? >> >> I downloaded the spec sheet. >> >> http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf >> >> What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page >> says: >> " >> >> - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of >> initial >> >> capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C >> " >> >> They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the >> nominal >> voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a guess >> - they don't reveal it. >> >> LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures than >> other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating >> deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C line >> that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of >> all information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region >> where deterioration accelerates. >> >> The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of >> capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that >> information. >> >> >> >> >> I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: >> >> They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start >> to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take >> it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must >> be >> capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many >> people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and >> we push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The >> video I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discuss >> es >> this in some detail. >> >> If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance of >> knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC y >> ou can have far few >> er >> cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged state and >> temperature >> - nothing much else matters >> . But >> , >> if the idea is to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to >> operate the cells, then you run cycles like they have >> ( >> and most everyone else in the business). >> >> I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad >> old ways of testing cells. >> >> The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state >> a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving >> a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that >> temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality >> of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the >> cells deteriorate. >> >> You could take the same physical cells and use >> different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no >> difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could >> tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to go. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> wrote: >> >> > Hello EVDL, >> > >> > EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to >> > their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product >> just >> > about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message >> makes to >> > thru to the board. >> > Regards, >> > Jeff Major >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV < >> > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Their contact info shows their location as,"Greenfield .Ind" May be >> > someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. >> > >> > regards >> > hg >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> > From: "Michael Ross via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> > To: "Mike" <mska...@cox.net>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" < >> > ev@lists.evdl.org> >> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM >> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences >> > >> > Mike, >> > >> > Caveat emptor. >> > >> > A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells >> me >> > they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I >> > can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. >> > >> > To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, >> and >> > have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision >> > coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life >> spec >> > that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer >> because >> > it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more >> > about the actual chemistry then you could look into that. Kick it around >> > on thes forum. >> > >> > They say nothing about their US facilities. If I had to guess they are >> > made overseas and branded ENRDEL. I would want to know more about that >> > manufacturing. >> > >> > They do not cite a single customer application. They talk about how they >> > could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. >> > >> > There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All >> > CAD renderings - not a good sign. >> > http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ >> > shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and >> > ENERDAL log. >> > >> > Call me suspicious. >> > >> > They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, >> or >> > who knows what. >> > >> > Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A >> > happy customer you can call? >> > >> > >> > Mike Ross >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> > >> > > I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use. >> > > Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan >> battery >> > > threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) >> > They >> > > are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady >> > declining >> > > ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. >> I am >> > > well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they >> have >> > > recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 >> AHrs. >> > > So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. >> > Thomas A. Edison >> > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> >> > >> > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. >> > *Warren Buffet* >> > >> > Michael E. Ross >> > (919) 585-6737 Land >> > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google >> > Phone >> > (919) 631-1451 Cell >> > >> > michael.e.r...@gmail.com >> > <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> > >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> > >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> > >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. >> Thomas A. Edison >> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> >> >> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. >> *Warren Buffet* >> >> Michael E. Ross >> (919) 585-6737 Land >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google >> Phone >> (919) 631-1451 Cell >> >> michael.e.r...@gmail.com >> <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/74c22524/attachment.htm >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/ddf1713f/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
