Paul Dove found this summary of the video:
http://powercartel.com/2014/11/notes-from-why-do-li-ion-batteries-die-lecture/ An excerpt from around 25:00 in the presentation: - Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiC02) - Lowest parasitic reactions at 30°C - Moderate at 60°C, but still lower than Lithium Manganese Oxide at 30°C - Tesla has used chemistries with similar characteristics - Lithium Cobalt Manganese Oxide (Li[NiMnCo]02) - Moderate at 30°C - ~50% of Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt packs - Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) - Moderate parasitic reactions at 30°C, high at 60°C - Used by Fiskar - Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn02) - Highest parasitic reactions of all examples at 30°C and even worse at 60°C - ~50% Part of the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt battery pack - Ill-suited to use in battery packs without thermal management, like the Nissan Leaf This is a very good lecture. Long and dense, but full of top notch information. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Michael Ross <[email protected]> wrote: > The IBT site shows testing to 500 cycles. This is nothing like what is > possible. > > Life Expectancy Minimum ¥ >300 cycles (80% rated capacity) Typical 500 > cycles (see graph below) > > Please watch the video of the lecture at Waterloo: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Bill Dube via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Here you go: >> http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Polymer/ >> Lithium_polymer_tech.html >> and here is a good chart: >> http://www.mdpi.com/energies/energies-07-05675/article_ >> deploy/html/images/energies-07-05675-g005-1024.png >> >> It is very common knowledge that warmer cells perform better than cooler >> cells for most battery chemistries. Chemical diffusion is more rapid at >> higher temperatures and allow the battery to deliver more power. What the >> battery can withstand without damage, and what particular elevated >> temperature is optimal is a matter of testing on the particular cell. >> >> In the Formula One kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) they operate >> their LiFePO4 cells continuously at greater than 70 Celsius. They get well >> over 20,000 w/kg at that temperature. (Your car battery gets about 300 >> w/kg to give you a frame of reference.) >> >> I have had a little bit of experience in squeezing maximum HP out of >> batteries over the years. :-) >> >> Bill D. >> >> At 12:18 PM 4/1/2015, paul dove wrote: >> >>> You gave no source. >>> >>> So one is better than none. >>> >>> I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect >>> performance. >>> >>> >>> From: Bill Dube via EV <[email protected]> >>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM >>> Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) >>> >>> The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally >>> to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is >>> limited because the electrolyte boils just >>> slightly above that temperature. Same type of >>> electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. >>> >>> The cell containment vessel can make a >>> big difference in this temperature limit, >>> however. Cylindrical cells can often hold >>> significant pressure while prismatic and pouch >>> cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. >>> Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure >>> of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you >>> can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) >>> would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is >>> correct) without damage. They weren't "rated" >>> that high, but they could withstand that >>> temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). >>> >>> Keep in mind that the cells will age >>> much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. >>> They perform better, however, and you don't hold >>> them that hot for very long. You must choose the >>> compromise between total life-span and >>> performance for the specific application, which >>> is typical for most things in life. >>> >>> I'm not sure where you are getting your >>> information. Better check more than one source. >>> >>> Bill D. >>> >>> At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: >>> >Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient >>> >temperatures should make anyone feel confident >>> >about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have >>> >serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully >>> >charged. That is certainly ambient here in >>> >North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed >>> >up with significant amperage scooting about. I >>> >must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind >>> >here. I simply want to point out a better way >>> >to go. That is to get better information for >>> >all. And better testing with in the >>> >industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar >>> >is all. They have an website that is light on >>> >good information and I waded in. I am happy to >>> >see that behind the curtain they may have more >>> >on the ball. I have been scanning the course >>> >work you provided to me, and it is very >>> >nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around >>> >page 279) I can see they clearly understand the >>> >reactivity of the positive electrode at very >>> >high SOC and how temperature makes that much >>> >worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have >>> >good information to work with and probably are >>> >engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin >>> >off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly >>> >impressed. I still have not figured out what >>> >chemistry they have chosen. From what I have >>> >seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in >>> >general terms regarding their own cells. If >>> >they are using some inferior chemistry and >>> >electrolyte package it is clearly not because >>> >they don't know better, so I bet they are >>> >OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am >>> >better educated. Thanks for taking the time to >>> >address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 >>> >at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV >>> ><<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: > I doubt that >>> >EnerDel and its customers have overlooked >>> >anything as basic > as performance and life at >>> >ambient temperatures. It appears to me that > >>> >Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by >>> >application and then > misinterpreting the >>> >presented data. But whatever. They have >>> >millions of > cells in the field and no >>> >complaints of which I am aware. > > >>> >-------------- next part -------------- > An >>> >HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > >>> ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ >>> attachments/20150401/e6911ad9/attachment.htm>http://lists. >>> evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/ >>> e6911ad9/attachment.htm >>> > > > > >>> >_______________________________________________ > >>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: >>> ><http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>http: // >>> www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>> >For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>> >( > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>http://groups. >>> yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- >>> >To invent, you need a good imagination and a >>> >pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison >>> ><<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/th omasaed125362.html> >>> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> >>> >A public-opinion poll is no substitute for >>> >thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) >>> >585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 >>> ><<https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones > >>> https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> >>> >Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell >>> ><mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>> ><<mailto:[email protected]>michael.e.ros [email protected]> >>> -------------- next >>> >part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> >scrubbed... URL: >>> ><<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org /attachments/20150401/ >>> dc67ff6e/attachment.htm>http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ >>> ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/dc67ff6e/attachment.htm> >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >UNSUBSCRIBE: >>> ><http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>http: // >>> www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> >For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>> >(<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>http://groups. >>> yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: <http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>http://www. >>> evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ >> attachments/20150401/dc887436/attachment.htm> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ >> group/NEDRA) >> >> > > > -- > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. Edison > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > [email protected] > <[email protected]> > > > -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell [email protected] <[email protected]> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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