Thinking about this, I know someone at UCI that may have the data that you are looking for - I will ask.
- Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Dec 23, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Mark Abramowitz <[email protected]> wrote: > > To be clear, my interest is in emissions and not source efficiency. If you > want source efficiency, ride a horse. Even better, ride a bike. That’s not > meant to be a smart aleck response, but to point out that those are more > efficient, but don’t have a lot of the other benefits that might be needed. > > For you own search about source efficiency, DOE is a good place, but not that > efficiencies (and cost and densities) are changing quickly, and aren’t always > public. > > Because of all this, it makes these exercises purely academic, as well as a > lot of work to get poor data. > > And environmental costs open up a whole new level of complexity, though by > not including post-life disposal and recycling, it’s a little more simple. > But still complex, particularly since there are many pathways to producing > (and using) both hydrogen and electricity. > > There are many expert in pieces of this, but I’m not one of those. > > But besides the main DOE website, try the sites for the DOE National Labs, > particularly NREL and Argonne. But much of that data is out of date, too. > > The web sites of the California Fuel Cell Partnership (CaFCP.org) and the > California Hydrogen Business Council (californiahydrogen.org) may have pieces > of Information on them that you may find useful, with the CHBC site expecting > much more posting in the near future. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Dec 23, 2018, at 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen >> generation, which is fine. I presume you are among the most knowledgeable >> people of how to generate this fuel. It would be very helpful if you could >> substantiate the claims being made with some quality references, rather than >> asking me to "do your own homework." Actually, I have done some looking and >> not found anything that shows cracking is more efficient than using the >> electricity directly in BEVs. >> >> I don't want to focus on whether BEVs are better or not than fuel cell EVs. >> Just which is a more efficient usage of source energy. That could include >> the environmental costs of manufacturing each type of distribution and >> storage systems. >> >> Peri >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> >> To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: 22-Dec-18 9:25:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG >> emissions) than the grid >> >>> “On a path” are my words. >>> >>> What *I* mean is that there are technologies existing and there are >>> technologies being developed and improved that can provide us with >>> fossil-free hydrogen AND the industry is committed to using these >>> technologies to getting to 100%. For several years, they’ve outperformed >>> the grid on this metric. >>> >>> As far as cracking efficiencies, just one of the technologies, efficiencies >>> have been improving significantly. You’ll have to do your own homework on >>> the rate of improvements. Just like batteries have many ways to produce >>> electricity, there are many path ways to produce (and use) hydrogen. >>> >>> Whether batteries are *better*, my own opinion is that it depends. It’s >>> another way of storing energy. It depends on the use. In vehicles, it >>> depends on duty cycle, cost, infrastructure, a whole host of things. I >>> don’t get too excited over the storage method of the energy. Others are >>> pathological over it. I guess it’s like “Go Raiders!” >>> > To be clear, my interest is in emissions and not source efficiency. If you > want source efficiency, ride a horse. Even better, ride a bike. That’s not > meant to be a smart aleck response, but to point out that those are more > efficient, but don’t have a lot of the other benefits that might be needed. > > For you own search about source efficiency, DOE is a good place, but not that > efficiencies (and cost and densities) are changing quickly, and aren’t always > public. > > Because of all this, it makes these exercises purely academic, as well as a > lot of work to get poor data. > > And environmental costs open up a whole new level of complexity, though by > not including post-life disposal and recycling, it’s a little more simple. > But still complex, particularly since there are many pathways to producing > (and using) both hydrogen and electricity. > > There are many expert in pieces of this, but I’m not one of those. > > But besides the main DOE website, try the sites for the DOE National Labs, > particularly NREL and Argonne. But much of that data is out of date, too. > > The web sites of the California Fuel Cell Partnership (CaFCP.org) and the > California Hydrogen Business Council (californiahydrogen.org) may have pieces > of Information on them that you may find useful, with the CHBC site expecting > much more posting in the near future. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Dec 23, 2018, at 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen >> generation, which is fine. I presume you are among the most knowledgeable >> people of how to generate this fuel. It would be very helpful if you could >> substantiate the claims being made with some quality references, rather than >> asking me to "do your own homework." Actually, I have done some looking and >> not found anything that shows cracking is more efficient than using the >> electricity directly in BEVs. >> >> I don't want to focus on whether BEVs are better or not than fuel cell EVs. >> Just which is a more efficient usage of source energy. That could include >> the environmental costs of manufacturing each type of distribution and >> storage systems. >> >> Peri >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> >> To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: 22-Dec-18 9:25:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG >> emissions) than the grid >> >>> “On a path” are my words. >>> >>> What *I* mean is that there are technologies existing and there are >>> technologies being developed and improved that can provide us with >>> fossil-free hydrogen AND the industry is committed to using these >>> technologies to getting to 100%. For several years, they’ve outperformed >>> the grid on this metric. >>> >>> As far as cracking efficiencies, just one of the technologies, efficiencies >>> have been improving significantly. You’ll have to do your own homework on >>> the rate of improvements. Just like batteries have many ways to produce >>> electricity, there are many path ways to produce (and use) hydrogen. >>> >>> Whether batteries are *better*, my own opinion is that it depends. It’s >>> another way of storing energy. It depends on the use. In vehicles, it >>> depends on duty cycle, cost, infrastructure, a whole host of things. I >>> don’t get too excited over the storage method of the energy. Others are >>> pathological over it. I guess it’s like “Go Raiders!” >>> >>> As far as infrastructure, some in the BEV industry would take strong >>> exception with your assertion that additional infrastructure isn’t needed. >>> I won’t jump into that fight. >>> >>> But you are right that at least initially, there needs to be a robust >>> fueling infrastructure. I like the idea of replacing fossil fuel stations >>> with renewable energy stations. >>> >>> But there is also work ongoing towards replacing the natural gas in >>> pipelines going to your home with hydrogen. >>> >>> Lastly, as far as your point about an industry that relies on fossil fuels, >>> the whole point of my original post was to show that the industry is >>> committed to *not* using polluting fossil fuels, and to eliminate those as >>> a source of the product in a timeframe faster than that of the grid. >>> >>> To date, they have already been surpassing the electrical grid in moving >>> away. >> Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen >> generation, which is fine. I presume you are among the most knowledgeable >> people of how to generate this fuel. It would be very helpful if you could >> substantiate the claims being made with some quality references, rather than >> asking me to "do your own homework." Actually, I have done some looking and >> not found anything that shows cracking is more efficient than using the >> electricity directly in BEVs. >> >> I don't want to focus on whether BEVs are better or not than fuel cell EVs. >> Just which is a more efficient usage of source energy. That could include >> the environmental costs of manufacturing each type of distribution and >> storage systems. >> >> Peri >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> >> To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: 22-Dec-18 9:25:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG >> emissions) than the grid >> >>> “On a path” are my words. >>> >>> What *I* mean is that there are technologies existing and there are >>> technologies being developed and improved that can provide us with >>> fossil-free hydrogen AND the industry is committed to using these >>> technologies to getting to 100%. For several years, they’ve outperformed >>> the grid on this metric. >>> >>> As far as cracking efficiencies, just one of the technologies, efficiencies >>> have been improving significantly. You’ll have to do your own homework on >>> the rate of improvements. Just like batteries have many ways to produce >>> electricity, there are many path ways to produce (and use) hydrogen. >>> >>> Whether batteries are *better*, my own opinion is that it depends. It’s >>> another way of storing energy. It depends on the use. In vehicles, it >>> depends on duty cycle, cost, infrastructure, a whole host of things. I >>> don’t get too excited over the storage method of the energy. Others are >>> pathological over it. I guess it’s like “Go Raiders!” >>> >>> As far as infrastructure, some in the BEV industry would take strong >>> exception with your assertion that additional infrastructure isn’t needed. >>> I won’t jump into that fight. >>> >>> But you are right that at least initially, there needs to be a robust >>> fueling infrastructure. I like the idea of replacing fossil fuel stations >>> with renewable energy stations. >>> >>> But there is also work ongoing towards replacing the natural gas in >>> pipelines going to your home with hydrogen. >>> >>> Lastly, as far as your point about an industry that relies on fossil fuels, >>> the whole point of my original post was to show that the industry is >>> committed to *not* using polluting fossil fuels, and to eliminate those as >>> a source of the product in a timeframe faster than that of the grid. >>> >>> To date, they have already been surpassing the electrical grid in moving >>> away. >>> >>> - Mark >>> >>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 22, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I, too, question the meaning of "on a path of 100% carbon-free hydrogen." >>>> It's one thing to have a goal and another to be on a path. The latter >>>> implies that the technology exists and needs to be scaled (and perhaps >>>> optimized). >>>> >>>> The only technology I'm aware of is using electricity to "crack" water. >>>> It's my understanding that the process is so inefficient that it's better >>>> to use the electricity directly (and store it in batteries). If that's the >>>> technology behind the "path" then please explain why that process is >>>> better than using batteries. >>>> >>>> The other major problem is infrastructure. Unlike EVs, you can't charge at >>>> home. So we would need to build out a filling station network equally >>>> robust as the petrol system we have today. I suppose you could say that >>>> it's partly built since the physical stations exist. But I expect there is >>>> extreme cost in installing large hydrogen tanks and providing the complex >>>> tank-to-car filling systems. >>>> >>>> If one is looking at the benefits of hydrogen generated from natural gas, >>>> there are some positive arguments. I won't go into that since I do not >>>> want to support a technology that continues to depend on fossil fuels. >>>> >>>> Since a lot of businesses and the government are on board with this, >>>> perhaps there's something completely wrong with my assumptions. Please >>>> correct me. >>>> >>>> Peri >>>> >>>> ------ Original Message ------ >>>> From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: 20-Dec-18 5:49:16 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG >>>> emissions) than the grid >>>> >>>>> Sorry, that last part should read “though unintentionally” >>>>> >>>>> - Mark >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Mark Abramowitz <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of you know that I’ve been an advocate for BEVs for a number of >>>>>> decades, and of hydrogen fuel cell EVs (the “other” electric vehicle) >>>>>> for a bit less. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my day job, I recommend and advocate major funding of both battery >>>>>> electrics and hydrogen fuel cell applications. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of my many volunteer roles (“working for free” as Bruce would put >>>>>> it) is serving as Immediate Past Chair of the California Hydrogen >>>>>> Business Council. >>>>>> >>>>>> As some of you may know, the renewable content of hydrogen used in >>>>>> transportation exceeds that of the grid. And the industry itself is on a >>>>>> path of 100% carbon-free hydrogen . >>>>>> >>>>>> Not long ago, the Hydrogen Council, made up of the CEOs of leaders in >>>>>> the industry, released a formal policy supporting 100% carbon-free in >>>>>> transportation hydrogen by 2030. This is 15 years before the 100% >>>>>> carbon-free grid date of 2045 adopted by the California legislature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tomorrow a release will go out announcing the support of this policy by >>>>>> the California Hydrogen Business Council. >>>>>> >>>>>> The adopted language follows. For those of you who have completely >>>>>> misstated the facts, though intentionally, I hope that you will read it >>>>>> carefully. >>>>>> >>>>>> December 18, 2018 >>>>>> >>>>>> CHBC Endorses Full Decarbonization Goal of Hydrogen in Transportation by >>>>>> 2030 >>>>>> >>>>>> The California Hydrogen Business Council (CHBC) on behalf of its members >>>>>> is pleased to endorse the commitment of the Hydrogen Council to the goal >>>>>> of decarbonizing 100% of hydrogen fuel used in transport by 2030. >>>>>> >>>>>> The goal was announced by the Hydrogen Council on September 14, 2018 at >>>>>> the Global Climate Action Summit in San Francisco, hosted by Governor >>>>>> Brown: >>>>>> >>>>>> “The Hydrogen Council, a global CEO coalition bringing together 50+ >>>>>> leaders in the energy, transport and industry space, is committed to an >>>>>> ambitious goal of ensuring that 100% of hydrogen fuel used in different >>>>>> modes of transportation is decarbonised by 2030. We are therefore >>>>>> calling on governments to build a global alliance that will create the >>>>>> necessary regulatory frameworks to help make this commitment a reality. >>>>>> Transport may be our first target, but with right level of support we >>>>>> will see positive effects across many sectors. We believe hydrogen can >>>>>> play a key role in the clean energy transition and we are ready to work >>>>>> together with governments to help create the right technical, financial >>>>>> and legislative environment that will enable decarbonised hydrogen to >>>>>> scale up.” >>>>>> >>>>>> Through this commitment to the 2030 goal, hydrogen for transportation >>>>>> can achieve full decarbonization 15 years ahead of the SB 100 mandate of >>>>>> 100% carbon-free electricity by 2045. Attainment of the stated goal of >>>>>> 100% carbon-free hydrogen fuel by 2030 will maintain the position of >>>>>> hydrogen fuel cell electric drive as the lowest-carbon alternative among >>>>>> electric drive solutions. >>>>>> The hydrogen industry is committed to helping California dramatically >>>>>> reduce emissions despite increasing transportation demand by providing a >>>>>> clean fuel that has proven itself in both on- and off-road applications >>>>>> and is emerging as an important alternative to diesel in marine, rail >>>>>> and port applications. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> URL: >>>>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181220/0efd6348/attachment.html> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181223/beaad5f9/attachment.html> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
