I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your concerns about the ability to really do it. On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off. Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need to compare it with. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > The only conclusion drawn by the authors is that it is not cost effective to > produce "green" hydrogen, meaning hydrogen produced from electrolysis using > electricity generated from some non carbon producing source. They also state > the fact that, today, almost all hydrogen is produced from natural gas. > > I completely stand by that conclusion. > > While it's theoretically possible to produce "decarbonized" hydrogen, it > can't be done on a commercial scale, let alone a scale large enough to power > America's transportation system. If we were to do so, we would have to build > some tens of thousands of terawatts of wind and solar electricity production > (or nuclear, I suppose). Out of that production, roughly 50% of the energy > would be lost in process of electrolysis and then electricity from a fuel > cell. Until we have so much excess "clean" electricity, it's more economical > and more efficient to use that to power homes, businesses, and industry > connected to the grid ... and EVs, where the loss is much less than 50%, more > like 10-20%. > > At some point, we'll probably have enough large scale excess that it makes > sense to produce hydrogen with that excess. But, I believe, the primary use > for that hydrogen will be for backup grid power generation, not > transportation. At that point, we'll be able to have a 100% clean grid and a > grid capable of charging EVs across the country ! > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> > To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > <[email protected]> > Sent: 13-Aug-21 00:11:06 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all > >> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the >> data. >> >> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, >> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce >> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not >> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% >> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be >> everywhere very soon. >> >> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the >> use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG >> impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. >> >> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while >> I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they >> *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as >> low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. >> >> So who is putting out more GHGs? >> >> This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most >> would view the data. >> >> - Mark >> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >> >>>> On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts. >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html >>> >>> ... >>> The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from >>> natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast >>> amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a >>> particularly potent greenhouse gas. >>> ... >>> And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon >>> dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — >>> even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply >>> burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the >>> Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and >>> Stanford Universities. >>> ... >>> The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground >>> leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research >>> that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than >>> previously known. >>> >>> They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon >>> capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of >>> blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or >>> coal for heat. >>> ... >>> Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the >>> University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need >>> to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green >>> hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent >>> parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and >>> the methane leaks. >>> ... >>> Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — >>> electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely >>> energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable >>> energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world >>> does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen >>> would be one way to store it.) >>> ... >>> >>> ----------- >>> >>> I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about >>> the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a >>> few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!! >>> >>> Peri >>> >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Address messages to [email protected] >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
