Absolutely agree. I was just trying to come up with a useful example to
extrapolate from.
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Matthew Pitts" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
Sent: 24-Nov-22 08:38:31
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Peri,
The problem is that you'll need far more locations to charge EV Semi
Trucks than just at current Truck Stop locations, because quite often
drivers stop to sleep at rest areas along the interstate highway
system. We actually do need a massive upgrade to the grid to compensate
for the shift in charging locations.
Matthew Pitts
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Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hi Bill,
I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer
on the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter
where I'm wrong.
If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some
calcs.
Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.&text=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)
39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate
50 * 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.
Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the
grid has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations
is still not a big problem, though.
But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers
on long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if
they drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge
at least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.
A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for
use at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to
be quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because,
you know, there are cloudy days, etc.
And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience
along the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on
the freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That
means, "overnight" charging can happen during the day.
In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less
load on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I
can imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or
in 100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some
choices to mull over.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Hi Peri,
Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always,
but mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in
mind.
The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland
seem to have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be
swapped out quickly for charging. They will tend to charge these
spare packs when is it least expensive to do so.
Both the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push
charging off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only
has issues during periods of peak demand, typically in the late
afternoon. For most of the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have
surplus capacity. During the late evening and before dawn, they have
_heaps_ of surplus capacity. They would be overjoyed to sell this
wasted excess grid capacity if they could do so.
The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel
for a few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so.
The grid operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak
charging incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the
"problem" is easily solved.
Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric)
water heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility.
The utility will switch off the water heater element during peak
times to move the consumption to help grid capacity. All done with
"ripple signals" from the utility over the power wires to your water
heater circuit. You can participate or choose not to by simply
pressing a button on your electrical panel. You will pay full price
for the electricity to heat you water if you do, however. _Everyone_
in New Zealand has a sophisticated electronic meter that logs what
you are drawing and what time you did it, then sends this
continuously to the power utility over the power wires.
There is no EV grid crisis looming. I have no idea who is
propagating this nonsense.
Bill D.
On 11/24/2022 8:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your
argument works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to
see what you have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect
your points of view.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: "Bill Dube" <[email protected]>
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a
little intelligence.
There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>
There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the
peak times of the day. No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_
during the day, and are charged when they are parked, during the
night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak
and the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How
do you charge from solar? <<<<
It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can
take it out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the
grid, you can draw it out from a location other than your home to
charge your EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid operator
incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation,
financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No brainer.
>>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves,
electric heat, etc. <<<<<<
The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has
very nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air
conditioning, electric heat, and power hungry home appliances.
As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will
adapt. EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and
back on to "park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid
operators simply have to decide on which of the many methods they
want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and offer you an
incentive to participate.
Bill D.
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