----- Original Message -----
From: "jamikes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Is consciousness real?
> Dear Bruno,
> No, I am not provocating you or anyone else and
> Yes. I know pain. Why do you think if you say 'pain' it has to be spelled
> "consciousness"? or "suffering" not good enough for you on its own right?
> I am conscious (of lots of things), but you sure are wasting your words. I
> wouldn't say joy etc. does not exist: that 'ominous noumenon' doesn't.
> Those 2000+ learned savants in now 3 conferences on consciousness
> from all over the world, - all of them - had something else to put into
> "content and description, science and discussion" of it. Why do you think
> that especially your version will hold? They all make a living on it. And:
> Poor old Descartes (I esteem his genius to the highest level) would have
> made quite different conclusions had he had a freshman's cours of the
> 2000/2001 schoolyear in physiology and biology. (Pineal gland?)
> Just that you mentioned him.
> Have fun
> John M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 9:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Is consciousness real?
> > Johnn Mikes wrote:
> > >Consciousness is a historical noumenon of no content, an imaginary
> > >that does not exist.
> > Consciousness is what makes pain painfull.
> > It makes also conscience possible, and it makes the human right
> > If you have had one moment of joy or pain, I take it that you belief
> > in consciousness, and that you are playing with words when you say it
> > does not exists. (Although I agree it exists only in some
> > second order sense, and I agree it is terribly difficult, if not
> > impossible, to define).
> > Like Descartes I believe that consciousness is a sort of fixed
> > point of doubt (like consistency for sound machines is a fixed
> > point of the non-provability predicate).
> > But perhaps, John, you are not conscious, in which case I am loosing
> > my time telling you that.
> > Honestly I guess you are conscious, and I guess you want just
> > provocate us.
> > Consciousness is as real as suffering.
> > You don't believe in suffering ?
> > Bruno