Russell Standish wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 07:29:33AM -0700, James N Rose wrote:
> > I would like to gather everyone's attention to point to
> > an essential conceptual error that exists in the current
> > debating points of this topic, which in fact has been
> > an egregious error in logic for the past 2500 years,
> > ever since Plato.
> >
>   .....  . . .   .  .   .     .       . 
>
> > 'color' - that which we first-order associate -with- apple, exists -solely-
> > in that region -outside and beyond- ... where 'apple' does not exist.  By
> > sheer rigid definition of 'existence' - and logical definitions re 'sets' -
> > apple and 'color' are and always must be -mutually exclusive-, with no Venn
> > intersection at all.
> >
> > Conclusions:
> >
> > 1. No entity is 'complete' in and of itself; entities are "completed" only
> > in co-presence of external environmentals.
> >
> > 2. Systems and entities -will have- qualia that exist (emergently) from
> > I-Thou relations which they may not be internally aware of, or be self
> > appreciative of, nor the impacts of these qualia on their 'self'.
> >
> > First and Third frames of reference can never be identical, and
> >
> > 'exhibition of qualia' versus 'access to qualia for feedback purposes'
> > are quite different things.
> >
> > Cybernetic secondary connections 'smooth' and blur this relationship
> > of being.
> >
> >
> > (there is more, but I don't have time at the moment to continue; sorry
> > to do a 'fermat', but I'll write again, if anyone cares to explore this
> > thread after this posting today)
> >
> > Jamie Rose
> > 19 May 2005
> 
> Agreed that colour is not a characteristic of an object in itself. How
> does this impact on the debate, however?


Russell,

Realize first that you just easily and aggreably opted to completely negate
Platonic 'real v. ideal' as a flawed logic.  Identification of 'essential
qualia' is no longer an a priori valid 'given'.  By next logical extension
of this de-validation, which qualia - assigned to an entity by way of
external evaluation of the entity - represent qualia which the entity
functions on immediately and intimately because the entity internally
has an information link to it?

The school prank of putting a secretly taped sign on a friends back
saying 'kick me'  ..  the conscious performance of the student -excludes-
a qualia which the environmental world identifies -with- the 
student-with-sign.

"A description of a system, and a system in and of itself, can never and
will never map perfectly one to one and on to."

QED

Conclusions:
 
   1. Initial condition alternatives result in alternate eventstream outcomes.
   2. Alternate information sets preclude precision cloning, 
                                           performances, decision gates.
   3. Conscious is not perfectly transferrable.

Jamie

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