Hi Tom,

    I completely agree with you on this and could only add that it seems 
almost impossible for us to comprehend the seemingly subconscious bias that 
we bring into discussions of the nature of Meaning and Existence. It is as 
if it is impossible to remove all vestiges of the existence of the act of 



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Caylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Everything List" <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Only Existence is necessary?


> Lee, Bruno, Stephen,
> I think this is an issue that lies at the heart of the matter.  (I
> don't know if it's the same as Smullyan's heart of the matter, but in a
> sense it very well could be.)
> The difference between a quark and a lepton can be described with
> mathematics, even though perhaps it's harder to pin down than the
> difference between 3 and 34.  I think most of us wouldn't have a
> crucial problem with that.  But alas the difference between 3 and 34 is
> in the counting.  Here is the heart of the matter, I believe.  It takes
> an observer to count, since it takes an observer to decide when to
> start counting, or to define a group of things.  This is where meaning
> and affect comes in.  Even numbers require an observer.  Bringing in
> prime numbers and multiplication doesn't prove that you don't need an
> observer.
> (=>) Yes, numbers are observer-independent (hence the success of
> "looking for invariance"), but this doesn't necessarily imply that you
> don't need an observer in the first place!  (<=)
> Extra, to Bruno:  In my view, we define numbers with invariance, by
> recognizing, when we make sense of what is around us, or even when we
> make sense of our own thoughts.  On the TV program "Sesame Street" they
> have small children singing "One of these things is not like the
> others" even before they introduce numbers.  This is what I mean by
> "looking for invariance".
> Tom

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