On Tuesday, January 6, 2026 at 4:16:30 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote:
On 1/6/2026 2:21 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Sunday, January 4, 2026 at 5:58:33 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 1/4/2026 4:20 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Friday, January 2, 2026 at 8:27:27 PM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: On Thursday, January 1, 2026 at 8:17:14 PM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: On Monday, December 29, 2025 at 1:55:37 AM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: On Sunday, December 28, 2025 at 1:32:44 AM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: Aren't these results an affirmation of the instantaneous collapse of the wf? AG How would Bell results be interpreted using the MWI? The results seem easy to interpret under Copenhagen. AG I still don't get it. If there's no collapse under the MWI, when UP is measured in THIS WORLD, how does the OTHER WORLD know to measure DN, ignoring the obvious fact that DN is ALSO measured in THIS WORLD? AG UP and DN are both measured in THIS WORLD. What I don't get is how adding the observer to the original superposition essentially forces the correct pair of ALICE-BOB measurements without any action at a distance when the pair are causally disconnected. AG Assuming Bell experiments imply the non-existence of local hidden variables, which I believe is the general consensus, we can imagine Alice and Bob having synchronized clocks, and we can measure when each measures some spin, UP or DN. If we agree that spin angular momentum is conserved, then no matter how close their measurements are to simultaneity, spin angular momentum is conserved, and in the limiting case where their measurements are simultaneous, if Alice measures UP (or DN), then Bob must measure DN (or UP). Consequently, I don't see how we can avoid the conclusion of some instantaneous "influence" occurring. Not faster than lightspeed, but instantaneous. Nor do I see any way the MWI circumvents this conclusion. AG They each get some result and when they compare them they find they are correlated. Here’s the setup using photons. A pair of photons whose polarizations are entangled are created by down-conversion in a crystal and are sent to (possibly distant) polarizers and detectors. The detectors record 0 (didn’t pass the polarizer) or 1 (did pass the polarizer). Alice and Bob keep records of the 0’s and 1’s and the angle settings in order so that later when they bring their records together they can calculate the correlation for each angle setting. For a Bell experiment, they do this for different runs with their polarizers set at angles 22.5deg and 45deg apart. Note that in relativity there is no invariant meaning to “at the exact simultaneous time” at different places. They can be at the same time in one reference frame, but then they are not at exactly the same time in a different, moving, reference frame. The experiment only requires that the measurement events be space-like separate, i.e. no signal can travel between Alice and Bob so that the polarizer setting chosen by Alice influences the photon at Bob’s polarizer and vice versa. Bell’s theorem is that under the assumption of no-signaling between Alice and Bob a certain combination of the correlations must always be less than 2. Alain Aspect (and the other two Nobel recipients this year, Zeilinger, and Clauser) performed experimental tests of Bell’s theorem and showed it was violated over a certain range of angles. The measurements are not made at zero relative angle, so measuring pass or didn't-pass is not the same at each detector. Rather they are related probabilistically as shown. Brent *Assuming everything you've written above is correct, can you succinctly explain why it implies local hidden variables don't exist? AG * *The function of correlations between of angles formed by Bell decreases linearly from 2 to -2 and never exceeds 2, yet the experimental result does exceed 2 at 22.5deg intervals between a, b', a', and b. Brent* *I can see that from the plot. But what I can't do is connect that plot to the claimed result that local hidden variables don't exist. AG * -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/98845641-fdf2-4d75-ae97-a79dbd47aa32n%40googlegroups.com.
