Le 29-janv.-07, à 21:33, 1Z a écrit :

> On 24 Jan, 11:42, Bruno Marchal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Le 23-janv.-07, à 15:59, 1Z a écrit :
>>> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> Also, nobody has proved the existence of a primitive physical
>>>> universe.
>>> Or of a PlatoniaCall it Platonia, God, Universe, or Glass-of-Beer, 
>>> we don' t care. But
>> we have to bet on a "reality", if we want some progress.
>> Now, here is what I do. For each lobian machine
> Where are these machines? Platonia?

Where is the universe?

> I prefer to assume what I can see.

Fair enough. I think we can sum up the main difference between 
Platonists and Aristotelians like that:

Aristotelians believe in what they see, measure, etc. But platonists 
believe that what they see is the shadow of the shadow of the shadow 
... of what could *perhaps* ultimately exists.

The deeper among the simplest argument for platonism, is the dream 
argument. Indeed, dreaming can help us to take some distance with the 
idea that seeing justifies beliefs. Put in another way, I believe in 
what I understand, and I am agnostic (and thus open minded) about 
everything else.

Now to be sure, I am not convinced that someone has ever  "seen" 
*primary matter*.



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