John, I share your apparent perplexity. No matter which way up I look at 
the things being discussed on this list, I always end up back in the 
same place [and yes it is always 'here' :-] which is that clearly prior 
to anything else is the fact of existence. I have to take this at too 
levels:
1/   firstly as sloganised by Mr R Descartes: 'I think therefore I am', 
although because I am naturally timid I tend more often to say something 
like: 'I think therefore I cannot escape the idea that if I say I don't 
exist it doesn't seem to sound quite right',
2/   the macroscopic corollary of the subjective microcosm just 
mentioned is that it I try to assert that nothing exists that just seems 
to be plain wrong, and if I dwell on the situations I find myself in - 
beset as I am with ceaseless domestic responsibilities and work related 
bureaucratic constraints, the clearest simple intuition about it all is 
that the universe exists whether I know it or not.

In short, being anything at all seems to entail being somewhere now, and 
even though numbers and mathematical operations seem to be wonderfully 
effective at representing many aspects of things going on in the world, 
there seems to be no way of knowing if the universe should be described 
as ultimately numeric in nature.

I must say too, that I am finding this and other consciousness/deep and 
meaningful discussion groups somewhat akin to the astronomer Hubble's 
view of the universe; the threads and discourses seem to be expanding 
away from me at great speed, so that every time I try to follow and 
respond to something, everything seems to have proliferated AND gone 
just that little bit further out of reach!
 
Regards
Mark Peaty  CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ 

John Mikes wrote:
> Bruno:
>
> has anybody ever seen "numbers"? (except for Aunt Milly who dreamed up 
> the 5 numbers she saw in her dream - for the lottery).
>
> "Where is the universe" - good question, but:
> Has anybody ever seen "Other" universes?
>
> Have we learned or developed (advanced) NOTHING since Pl & Ar?
>
> It is amazing what learned savant scientists posted over the past days.
> Where are they indeed?
>
> John
>
>
> On 2/1/07, *Bruno Marchal* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Le 29-janv.-07, à 21:33, 1Z a écrit :
>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On 24 Jan, 11:42, Bruno Marchal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>     <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>     >> Le 23-janv.-07, à 15:59, 1Z a écrit :
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>     >>
>     >>>> Also, nobody has proved the existence of a primitive physical
>     >>>> universe.
>     >>
>     >>> Or of a PlatoniaCall it Platonia, God, Universe, or
>     Glass-of-Beer,
>     >>> we don' t care. But
>     >> we have to bet on a "reality", if we want some progress.
>     >>
>     >> Now, here is what I do. For each lobian machine
>     >
>     > Where are these machines? Platonia?
>
>
>
>     Where is the universe?
>
>
>
>
>
>     > I prefer to assume what I can see.
>
>
>
>
>     Fair enough. I think we can sum up the main difference between
>     Platonists and Aristotelians like that:
>
>     Aristotelians believe in what they see, measure, etc. But platonists
>     believe that what they see is the shadow of the shadow of the shadow
>     ... of what could *perhaps* ultimately exists.
>
>     The deeper among the simplest argument for platonism, is the dream
>     argument. Indeed, dreaming can help us to take some distance with the
>     idea that seeing justifies beliefs. Put in another way, I believe in
>     what I understand, and I am agnostic (and thus open minded) about
>     everything else.
>
>     Now to be sure, I am not convinced that someone has ever  "seen"
>     *primary matter*.
>
>     Bruno
>

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