Thanks for the interesting link Jason,   Douglas Jones is obviously a 
very clever and thoughtful person.  

One interesting thing about "A Conversation" [and I didn't read all of 
it because it is LONG as the author warns us] is how it balances the 
extremes of optimism and pessimism. The pessimism is expressed in Bob's 
hints and descriptions of the ugliness that people can create in 
their/our treatment of each other. The optimism is in the infinity of 
potential of the 'cyberspace' where Bob /actually/  lives.

As I said I didn't read all of it, but dipped in and out, may be read 
30% of it. My complaint about it, for want of a better word, is that it 
does not seem to deal with entropy or the distinction between digital 
versus analogue universes, or indeed a patentable design for an 
interface. Bob' one-way 'Door' is of course a read-and-destroy 
teleporter station, and therefore a form of suicide machine; cyberspace 
is the 'promised land', the good news that comes after the bad news. 
Overall it makes quite happy reading, though I really do think Douglas 
Jones has paid far too much attention to the claims of people who say 
they have been abducted by Aliens. I personally have only experienced 
the 'paralysis' that accompanies night terrors a few times and I chanced 
to wake up each time within 20 or 30 seconds of the onset of the 
experience. I think I was very fortunate in that respect because at the 
time, about 30 years ago, I was much more 'open minded' than I am now 
and could well have ended up believing a complete load of old cobblers 
that might have been very hard to escape.

I'll say no more to that because it is off topic

On-topic however, is my assertion that >> the human universe is always 
potentially infinite, so long as it exists and we believe it to be so <<.

In bygone eras people were confined to saying things like: "Where 
there's life, there's hope!". That is still true, and appropriate for 
many circumstances but it is a bit low-tech for the modern era. The 
potential infinity of the human universe is based on our subjective 
ability to imagine things being other than they are, and on our 
objective ability to change the world around us. The first involves 
simulation within the mind, the second involves implementation of the 
results of mental simulation. And of course these processes are 
potentially recursive to an extent limited ultimately by our 
intelligence, loosely speaking, and our desire to maximise the survival 
prospects of our descendants and their contemporaries.

I don't think it is 'moralising' to point out that every thing we do has 
an opportunity cost, including speculation concerning simulations and 
replications of universes.


Mark Peaty  CDES



Jason wrote:
> On Mar 4, 12:09 pm, "Danny Mayes " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Why some intelligent beings in some other part of the
>> multiverse may want to simulate or emulate our part of the multiverse is
>> interesting as well, but is entirely unrelated to the logic of whether the
>> entire entity is at least in part a simulation as set forth above.
>> Danny Mayes
> I think such simulation will be the ultimate goal of technology for
> any intelligent and curious species.  Simulation is the ultimate form
> of exploration as it allows connections to be made between otherwise
> unreachable universes.  If every possible universe exists and each is
> non-interacting, the only way to "explore" the other possibilities for
> existance would be simulation.  Any universes where a Turing machine
> can be built can discover all Turing emulable universes.  New
> universes are not being created when a simulation is conducted, rather
> a connection is made to a possible existance which has always been
> there.
> Douglas Jones wrote a very interesting hypothetical conversation
> between a human and a highly advanced alien who lives in "cyberspace"
> where not only can any imaginable environment or universebe be
> simulated, but all beings like him had thier minds uploaded and are
> also simulated.  It is available at 
> and is well worth the read.  Mind uploading and simulation I think
> would be desirable to any intelligent and sufficently advanced race.
> It offers unlimited freedom, immortality (or at least greatly extended
> existance), and the ability to participate in fully immersive "game
> worlds" which are subjectively indistingushable from any other
> reality.
> I believe there may even be a statistical argument for our existance
> in such a "game world" now.  Consider that in human history, about 60
> billion humans have ever lived.  If humanity reaches a technological
> singularity in the near future, and the majority of the human race
> uploaded their minds into computers, it would only take each person on
> average playing 10 lifetimes (600-700 years) worth of these immersive
> games before the bulk of human experience has been simulated as
> opposed to physical.  Considering such a civilization could last many
> billions of years if not longer, the simulated human experiences would
> greatly outweigh the physics-based ones.
> Jason

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at

Reply via email to