you put your finger usually on the 'not-so-obvious' (but relevant). I
confess to not having memorized all the posts concerning conscious(ness?) on
this list since 1996 or so, but looked up the topic prior to that.
I found a historically developing noumenon, unidentified and a loose cannon,
everybody including whatever he needed for his theoretical justification,
some only static (awareness, etc.) some also dynamic (control of
life-processes), as our enriching cognitive inventory served the theorists
over the past 3000 years.
I tried to generalize the concept and posted my result several times here
and elsewhere.
 (Responding to information, i.e. to perception of a difference not only
human not only even mental,).

Important is that 'conscious' (especially "of") is NOT the adjective for
consciousness, which in turn is NOT the opposite of 'unconscious(ness)'.

 Do we have this involved discussion, because we did not agree what we are
talking about? Do we agree in "What is a ZOMBIE"? the fictional figment that
does not exist? if it 'does not have Ccness, then what is that Ccness it
does not have? It is not a computer: a computer has (???) Ccness.
 I asked such questions on at least 10 lists and the best answer was:
"everybody knows what it is".Now I am not asking "what Ccness is, I ask what
are we talking about, then comes the next: do we have a matching mindset
(believe system) for the discussion (the lack of which preempts discussions
between faithful and faithless).
Mark , these questions are not really aimed at you. I know: Stathis, Bruno,
Brent, Torgny, and some more on this list have answers, but are those
answers compatible?

What I would prefer is to talk about the elements we include in this
noumenon as single nouimena, each on its own merit and meaning,
irrespectively of any adjustment to other elements. That comes later.


On 6/9/07, Mark Peaty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> SP:
> 'I've seen quite a few deluded people who believe that they are
> dead, but
> > no-one who thinks they're unconscious...'
> MP: There is possibly a loose end or two here and perhaps
> clarification is needed, yet again:
> *       It may well be that history is in the making, Torgny Tholerus
> is breaking new ground with Earth shaking results [sorry :-],
> and kudos will be yours if you can book him in first for a
> consultation [or dissection if it comes to that].
> *       Or this could conceivably be construed as a 'state of grace'
> in that Torgny is operating with no mental capacity being wasted
> on self-talk or internal commentary: 'just doing' whatever needs
> to be done and 'just being' what he needs to be; very Zen!
> *       Then again it may be that I have misunderstood TT's grammar
> and that what he is denying is simply the separate existence of
> something called 'consciousness'. If that be the case then I
> would not argue because I agree that the subjective impression
> of being here now is simply what it is like to be part of the
> processing the brain does, ie updating the model of self in the
> world.
> *       But I agree also that you are highly unlikely to come across
> someone who can truthfully say 'I am not conscious'. It seems
> totally self-contradictory: for example a person not just with
> 'hemi' neglect, but total neglect. How could such a person
> encounter themselves or the world?
> Or is there the possibility of something like so-called
> blindsight in every sensory modality? For example: deaf-hearing,
> numb-sensing, proprio-non-ception? This would imply a zombie
> [without 'a life'] which survived by making apparently random
> guesses about everything yet getting significantly more than
> chance success in each modality.
> A scary thought!
> Regards
> Mark Peaty  CDES
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 09/06/07, *Mark Peaty* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:'
> >
> >     >  What is the philosophical term for persons like me, that totally
> deny
> >     >  the existence of the consciousness?'
> >
> >     MP: I think the word you are looking for is "deluded".
> >
> >
> >
> > I've seen quite a few deluded people who believe that they are dead, but
> > no-one who thinks they're unconscious...  something to keep an eye out
> for.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stathis Papaioannou
> >

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