On 16 Mar 2010, at 12:59, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On 16 March 2010 01:39, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

The problem is that "right" has no objective basis. It's like "good"
or "beauty": a concept made up by humans.

The concepts of moon, rock, galaxies, and numbers, are also made by human,
but they may relate to things no done by humans.
Let me (try to) give you a definition of beauty. X is beautiful relatively to universal Y, if universal Y is attracted by X. X is very beautiful if X attracts a large class of universal Y. X is universally beautiful if X
attracts all universal Y.

Good is a notion quite close to consciousness. We cannot define it, but we
know it most clearly than anything else.
Most people are clear about what they find good, in the instant (as opposed to long term effect which makes things having both good and bad aspects).

Subjective is true and undoubtable, but non definable, and non communicable,
still less institutionalizable.

Good is related to the partial ability that universal machines to get
partial and local level of satisfaction, sometimes eventually based on
universal goal (like "survive").

I tend to believe also in universal right. Although I doubt any temporal construction other than education, schools, academies, research institutes, can help to develop it. I would say that all universal machine have, at birth, the right to search happiness. It may be a moral duty to share the
tools facilitating that search.

But people may disagree in aesthetic and ethical judgements while they
will all agree on some matter of fact. If you say "good" is defined
for a machine in terms of that which helps it attain a goal that is a
good operational definition but then the problem is only deferred
until we consider the goal. A goal of destroying all intelligent
entities other than oneself is a perfectly legitimate one; there is no
logical contradiction and no incompatibility with physical reality in

In case such a destruction is needed to satisfy some universal goal like surviving, then I can agree. Particular good and bad can be in the beholder's eyes, yet good and bad are lived as undoubtable or true, and can have objective roots in computer science. Killing all the others may be contradictory on epistemological levels or pragmatic one, etc. Self-destruction is usually bad and related to relatively bad things, with respect of universal goal (like surviving).

You obviously think that
public health care is morally wrong while others (probably most people
in the world) think that the lack of public health care is morally
wrong. You could have a rational discussion about, say, the efficiency
of public versus private health care, but with the core moral issue
you will reach an impasse, because your premises differ.

I may disagree. There is a quasi-universal reason for which health should be a public care, or at least a matter of making heathy people to provide the money. Why? Because if you don't force the healthy people to provide money to the medical system(s), then, it will be in the survival interest of the medical systems that there are as many unhealthy people as possible. The results will be like making efficacious and cheap medication illegal, and
encourage, by making legal, medications which are inefficacious and

You could argue that would be the case with many privately provided
services; a mechanic should not be motivated to fix your car, for
example. Despite this obvious bias, mechanics still fix cars because
(apart from honesty and professional standards) they will not get
repeat business if the cars they fix keep breaking down: their
competitors who do a better job get the business instead.

I agree with you. The point was not so the private/state opposition, than the idea of making only the sick people to pay for their care. In many country state medicine handle better social solidarity. But private societies could do this too, in principle, but this leads naturally to different kinds of care for the rich and the poor. The same for education.

Now, the big pharmaceutical industry has no competitors, still less, when politics intervenes and makes illegal alternative medications. Here the private, due to monopole, is even worst than the states. Politics should not been allow to take decision in many health matter. It makes the state accomplice of the derailing of global health decisions.

Universal health care may be a Löbian right. All beings capable of suffering has the right to suffer the less possible, even when respectfully eaten.



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