On Apr 16, 6:29 am, Skeletori <sami.per...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 16, 6:01 am, "rexallen...@gmail.com" <rexallen...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > What would make universes with honest initial conditions + causal laws > > more probable than deceptive ones? For every honest universe it would > > seem possible to have an infinite number of deceptive universes that > > are the equivalent of "The Matrix" - they give rise to conscious > > entities who have convincing but incorrect beliefs about how their > > universe really is. These entities' beliefs are based on perceptions > > that are only illusions, or simulations (naturally occurring or > > intelligently designed), or hallucinations, or dreams. > > > It seems to me that it would be a bit of a miracle if it turned out > > that we lived in a universe whose initial state and causal laws were > > such that they gave rise to conscious entities whose beliefs about > > their universe were true beliefs. > > I agree, if the initial conditions and laws are complex enough that > the Matrix is directly baked there.

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Assuming physicalism, the complexity we see around us had to come from somewhere, right? And there are only two choices: either the initial conditions, or the causal laws (which may have a probablistic aspect). > If we want to talk about > probabilities we'd need to assign some measure to possible universes, > and most of the mass will be concentrated on the simple universes. > However, "simple" in this case doesn't mean much and wouldn't preclude > Matrix-like universes. Indeed! "Peter van Inwagen proposed a rather peculiar answer to the question why there exists anything at all. His reasoning is as follows. there may exist an infinite number of worlds full of diverse beings, but only one empty world. Therefore the probability of the empty world is zero, while the probability of a (non-empty) is one. This apparently simple reasoning is based on very strong an essentially arbitrary assumptions. First of all, that there may exist an infinite number of worlds (that they have at least a potential existence); secondly, that probability theory as we know it may be applied to them (in other words that probability theory is in a sense aprioristic with respect to these worlds); and thirdly, that they come into being on the principle of 'greater probability.' The following question may be put with respect to this mental construct: 'Why does it exist, rather than nothing?'" - Michael Heller > It's even worse when you consider how much more likely it is that we > live in a simulation :). Although, for every simulated world there's a > possible universe with the exact same structure, so it might be > difficult to distinguish between the two, even in principle. It seems to me that for every possible universe there are an infinite number of possible "deceptive" simulations of it. But for the universe being simulated, there is only one possible "honest" instance of it. So...if we assume that physicalism/materialism is true, it would seem that we should also assume that our perceptions don't tell us anything about the true underlying nature of reality. At best, our perceptions only tell us about the rules of our (probably naturally occuring) simulation. But more likely, our perceptions only tell us about our perceptions...and it's a mistake to infer anything further with respect to ontology. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.