On 03 May 2010, at 01:20, Brent Meeker wrote:

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On 5/2/2010 3:33 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 02 May 2010, at 20:30, Brent Meeker wrote:On 5/2/2010 1:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 01 May 2010, at 22:02, Brent Meeker wrote:On 5/1/2010 12:25 PM, Rex Allen wrote:On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@dslextreme.com> wrote:This argument is not definitive mainly because we don't have a definitive theory of consciousness, but to the extent we assume a physical basis for consciousness it seems pretty good.Ha! As long as you assume there is no problem ofconsciousness, thenthere's no problem! That is pretty good.So you do have a theory of consciousness in which we can havetimeless thoughts?DM (digital mechanism, comp ...) entails somehow that all thoughtare timeless;That's one of the assumptions of DM, that thoughts are states.But that seems doubtful to me. At the "substitution level" thereare states, but those are too finely divided to correspond tothoughts.Thought are not state. Thought correspond to infinities ofsequences of states: at least one for any universal machine, giventhat the UD run all UDs executed by all universal machines. Thismakes a lot of number relations involved in the epistemologicalexistence of (conscious, first person) thought. The thought arereally in the abstract structures realized by those infinities ofsequences of states. Now, all this is defined already in Platoniaand is timeless. Time belongs to the thought, it is part of thequalia.Ok. So sequence is part of thought, and I suppose that supplies thedirection of time we experience with the thought. So while thethought, as described in Platonia, is timeless it's experienced astimed because of the sequential structure.

`OK. And the finite sequences are determined by the usual relations`

`provable in (Robinson) arithmetic: 0 < 1 < 2 < 3 < 4 < 5 < 6 < ...`

But thoughts related to universal machines which makes them feltas being embedded in time-structure.Amazingly enough some plants can make you live timelessconsciousness (google on salvia divinorum reports). Despite DM, Ithought such experience was not "memorizable", but apparentlythey are.Are these timeless thoughts expressible in sentences? or are theylike images?

`I have to say that is unlike anything you can conceive, even after`

`"living that". It looks more like a new qualia, where reason suggests`

`that no qualia can be there, except perhaps in the form of a (sudden)`

`remembering of a "true" (eternal/invariant/unmovable) identity which`

`has just nothing to do with time, space, images, sound, even numbers.`

`Ineffable is the usual rendering.`

`Let me try an image of some predecessor altered conscious state: It`

`may be described as seing your "body-and-soul" as a window on reality,`

`and you cease to identify yourself with that body-and-soul, but you`

`identify "yourself" to the one who look through the windows, and`

`actually "your current window", which appears as contingent. This is`

`made possible by amnesy and/or dissociation from your memory/memories.`

Let me make some comments related to other posts:About TS (technological singularity): I have a theory accordingto which this happens each time an universal entity generates anuniversal entity. In that sense the following are probableexamples of TS:- the big bang (in the theories where that exists) - the origin of life - the origin of brain - the origin of thought - the origin of languages - the origin of computers/universal machine - the origin of programming languages etc.All those TS, and infinitely many others, exist out of time andspace in any unravelling of arithmetical truth.The LĂ¶bian machine is the most intelligent entities that canexist, but "programming it" make it a slave, and its "soul falls".What some people call TS is not when machine will be as clever asus, but as stupid as us, probably. Stupidity develops when weconfuse competence and intelligence. Intelligence is needed todevelop competence, but competence has a negative feedback onintelligence.About BB (Boltzmann brains):BB provide a physicalist rendering of the (mathematical) UDparadox. The UD, and thus elementary arithmetic, generates allBB's states, in infinitely many histories. You can extract themeasure on them by the use of the logic of arithmetical self-reference,What measure is that?The one which extends the 'measure one' given by S4grz1, or/andZ1*, or/and X1*.That is, the material hypostases. The measureexists if the arithmetical quantum logic, (with quantization of pdefined by BDp, with B and D the box and diamond of S4grz1 or/andZ1* or/and X1*) fulfills von Neumann criterion for being the"right' quantum logic: it defines the orthostructure on which a"theorem of Gleason" makes it possible to extend the measure 1-calculus into the full calculus (measure in [0 1]).Doesn't that require a continuous probability operator? How is thatconsistent with the digital nature of comp?

`It is a consequence of the first person indeterminacy. The UD`

`multiplies all computations, belonging to the domain of indeterminacy,`

`by 2^aleph_0. It is a point I have discussed a long time ago with`

`Schmidhuber on this list.`

`The UD dovetails on all finite pieces of computations using the real`

`number as oracle. Although the set of real numbers is not enumerable,`

`the UD can dovetail on *all* real numbers, that is it can generate all`

`real numbers, or all infinite binary sequences:`

`The idea is to see a finite initial sequence as a name for all`

`sequences having the same beginning.`

`0 (here I have succeed in generating the first digit of all`

`sequences beginning by 0 (a non enumerable set!))`

1 (and here another infinity!) 00 (and here another one) 01 (and here another one) 10 (and here another one) 11 (and here another one) 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111 etc.

`Even algorithmically incompressible sequences are eventually`

`generated, bit by bit. There is no contradiction, because a sequence`

`is said non compressible if the shorter program generating it, *and`

`only it* is about the same size of the sequence. Here, the trick is`

`that we generate all sequences, finite pieces by finite pieces.`

`From a third person point of view, this is equivalent with the`

`generation of all finite binary sequence, but ...`

`... your first person indeterminacy is invariant for the delay of the`

`UD generating all those piece of computations. So we have to take them`

`all, and the measure will be defined on all computations going through`

`your states, including those dovetailing on the reals. Applying the`

`rule Y = II, that is looking in the consciousness-differentiation`

`'picture' instead of the "bifurcating realities", you see that the`

`first person (plural) indeterminacy is defined a priori on a non`

`enumerable structure.`

`It is different but comparable to Skolem paradox, where an enumerable`

`model of ZF exists. From inside that model, many non enumerable set`

`exists, and the model (universe) itself is non enumerable. But it may`

`be said to be an illusion from inside. We, outside the model we see`

`bijection between the "non enumerable set" of the model, and N. But we`

`can see that those bijection does not belong to the model. They go out`

`and in the model, so that the creature in the model cannot see them,`

`and are correct when proving those set to be non enumerable.`

`But here, with the UD, it is different. The non enumerability comes`

`from the limiting use of the first person non awareness of any UD time`

`steps, and the fact that the UD and UDs dovetails on the reals (and`

`the octonions, etc.).`

`That's the UDA-type of explanation. Now, there is a more formal reason`

`reason: why would the model of the material 'hypostases", that is the`

`(non Kripke) semantics of the X1*, or Z1* be digital instead of`

`continuous? There is no reason. The fact that we loose the`

`necessitation rules favor more topological semantical structures.`

Dont hesitate to ask any further questions. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.