Brent,

Have you still an objection? I am not sure I remember.

`I think I have answered your 'environment objection' by the fact that`

`the UD reasoning remains unchanged with the notion of "generalized`

`brain". DM is, from that point of view very weak. The substitution`

`level can be so 'low' that you are captured only by the quantum state`

`of the "whole observable (or not) universe!`

`To negate comp you may think of analog quantum eden garden (that is:`

`not UD accessible, nor arithmetically verifiable, not solution of a`

`diophantine equation). Or take a non computable solution of`

`Schroedinger equation, like Ae^-i*omega*Ht, H some Halmitonian, and`

`omega for some incompressible Chaitin number.`

But I am not sure we have concluded on the objection made by Jack.

`It would certainly help to put the finger on the difficulty. (it is`

`the most difficult point perhaps).`

`Suppose consciousness supervenes on the activity of some computer, and`

`this in such a way that the artificial complex glial-neuron FF76A89,`

`say, is never used. Could it be that consciousness would NOT have`

`supervened in case that complex glial-neuron FF76A89 would have been`

`missing, (in an exactly identical digital virtual environment, for the`

`sake of the discussion)? Jack seems to believe this.`

Do you?

`It seems weird to me that for defending the "real time"-physical-`

`supervenience-thesis, you have to take into account the presence of`

`objects having no physical activity relevant with the actual physical`

`activity for that computation. Sure, they have a physical presence,`

`but to require this presence for the supervenience introduces an`

`element preventing saying "yes" qua computatio to the doctor. If the`

`mere presence of an element is needed, it can only mean, for a`

`computationalist, that the level of substitution was incorrect, even`

`if only for a period of activity. Like Stathis explained it makes`

`consciousness here and now, contingent on future event, and it`

`introduce zombies, if not partial zombies.`

`Consciousness concerns abstract things, which can be considered as`

`attribute of person(s) or living being(s). It is related to the truth`

`about the relations that universal LĂ¶bian machines can have with`

`themselves and with their most probable universal neighbors. Universal`

`machine represents themselves relatively to those neighbors. It is a`

`continuum of neighbors, given the fact that all universal machines`

`(even those with oracle) competes simultaneously, below your`

`substitution level.`

`Maybe a problem: DM could make the observable reality truly fractal.`

`Universal machines are relatively dynamical mirrors.`

`And from inside the complexity seems unbounded and non enumerable. Are`

`fractals quantum mechanical compatible? Is it quantum chaos? The one`

`"generated" by the prime numbers? Is quantum chaos Turing Universal?`

`Is the "quantum level", which is really an level of isolation and`

`independence of computations, the DM substitution level, or is the`

`substitution lower (like we would have a quantum brain), in which case`

`topological computations somehow wins on the universal dovetailing?`

`I think computer science can help to formulate the problem.`

`Computationalist supervenience can be defined, without any requirement`

`of having a notion of causality. Physicalists point on some universal`

`system, where DM asks for a justification, by taking account of the`

`consciousness (first person) indetermination. Reality should be`

`invariant for the choice of the universal system taken as basic.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.