On 11/21/2010 10:43 AM, Rex Allen wrote:
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 7:36 AM, 1Z<peterdjo...@yahoo.com>  wrote:
On Nov 19, 3:11 am, Rex Allen<rexallen31...@gmail.com>  wrote:
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Jason Resch<jasonre...@gmail.com>  wrote:
Your post reminded me of the quote (of which I cannot recall the source)
where someone asked "Who pushes who around inside the brain?", meaning is it
the matter that causes thought to move around a certain way, or is it the
opposite?  The looped hierarchies described by Hofstadter, if present, make
this a difficult question to answer.  If the highest levels of thought and
reason are required in your decision making, does it still make sense to say
we are slaves of deterministic motions of particles or is that missing a few
Well, I find it entirely conceivable that fundamental physical laws
acting on fundamental physical entities (particles, fields, strings,
whatever) could account for human behavior and ability.

So if human behavior and ability is what we are trying to explain,
then I see no reason to invoke thought and reason as causal forces
No-one is. They are just valid descriptions. There is no argument
to the effect that logic is causal or it is nothing. It is not
the case that causal explanation is the only form of explanagion
“Valid descriptions” don’t account for why things are this way rather
than some other way.

Only causal explanations do that.

No, causal explanations only push the question back a step. And even the one step is just description plus asserting necessity.

And, even if you wanted to, I don't see how they could be made to
serve that role.  1Z and I discussed this in the other thread.

We don't invoke thought and reason to explain the abilities and
behavior of chess playing computers
Sometimes we do...see Dennett;s "intentional stance"
See my other post in the previous thread on shortcuts, forests, and trees.

- and while human behavior and
ability is much more complex and extensive, I think it can be put in
the same general category.
Dennett would agree, but push the logic in the other direction:

Humans are a complex sort of robot.
Wild speculation.

As I said before, materialism could conceivably explain human ability
and behavior, but in my opinion runs aground at human consciousness.
Therefore, I doubt that humans are a complex sort of robot.

Humans have intentionality.
Granted.  I do anyway.  So at least one human does.

Therefore some other, sufficiently complex, robots have intentionality
Not proven.

Proof is for mathematics.


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