On Nov 21, 6:35 pm, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 7:28 AM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Nov 18, 6:31 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> My position is: > > >> So either there is a reason for what I choose to do, or there isn't. > > >> If there is a reason, then the reason determined the choice. No free will. > > > Unless you determined the reason. > > How would you do that? By what means? According to what rule? Using > what process? > > If you determined the reason, what determined you? Why are you in the > particular state you're in? > > If there exists some rule that translates your specific state into > some particular choice, then there's still no free will. The rule > determined the choice.
And if there isn't...you have an action that is reasoned yet undetermined, as required > >> =*=*=*= > > >> As for my definition of free will: > > >> "The ability to make choices that are neither random nor caused." > > >> Obviously there is no such ability, since "random" and "caused" > >> exhaust the possibilities. > > >> But some people believe in the existence of such an ability anyway. > > > Free Will is defined as "the power or ability to rationally choose and > > consciously perform actions, at least some of which are not brought > > about necessarily and inevitably by external circumstances". > > How does this differ in meaning from my definition? I don't think it does. > > > Not that according to this definition: > > > 1. Free will is not deterministic behaviour. It is not driven by > > external circumstances. > > OK. Not in conflict with my definition. > > > 2. Nor is free will is randomness or mere caprice. ("Rationally > > choose and consciously perform"). > > OK. Not in conflict with my definition. > > > 3. Free will requires independence from external circumstances. It > > does not require independence or separation from one's own self. Ones > > actions must be related to ones thoughts and motives > > Related by what? Deterministic rules? Probabilistic? > If one's actions are determined by ones thoughts and motives, what > determines one's thoughts and motives? > > And why do some particular set of thoughts and motives result in one > choice instead of some other? If there is no reason for one choice > instead of the other, the choice was random. > > > 4. But not complete independence. Free will does not require that > > all our actions are free in this sense, only that some actions are not > > entirely un-free. ("...at least some of which..."). > > OK. Not in conflict with my definition. > > > 5. Free will also does not require that any one action is entirely > > free. In particular, free will s not omnipotence: it does not require > > an ability to transcend natural laws, only the ability to select > > actions from what is physically possible. > > Select using what rule? What process? What mechanism? Magic? > > Either there is a reason that you selected the action you did, in > which case the reason determined the selection - or there isn't, in > which case the selection was random. > > Also the phrase "from what is physically possible" is suspicious. If > the natural laws determine what is physically possible, don't they > determine everything? Not if they are probablistic. In a probablistic universe, some things are still impossible > Where does this leave room for free will? > > "the ability to select actions from what is physically possible" > > Select by means that is neither random nor caused. Okay. That's what I said. Select means it is neither determined nor unreasoned > > 6. Free will as defined above does not make any assumptions about > > the ontological nature of the self/mind/soul. There is a theory, > > according to which a supernatural soul pulls the strings of the body. > > That theory is all too often confused with free will. It might be > > taken as an explanaiton of free will, but it specifies a kind of > > mechanism or explanation — not a phenomenon to be explained. > > OK. Not in conflict with my definition. > > > I.1.v Libertarianism — A Prima Facie case for free will > > As for the rest of it, I read it, but didn't find it convincing on any level. > > RIG + SIS <> Free Will > > A random process coupled to a deterministic process isn't free will. > It's just a random process coupled to a deterministic process. If you insist that FW is a Tertium Datur that is fundamenally different from both determinism and causation, then you won't accept a mixture. However, I don;t think Tertium Datur is a good definition of DW sinc e it is too question begging > If you > ask most people "is this free will?" - they will say no. > > Free will (in most peoples estimation) requires a process that is > neither random *nor* determinstic. Surely not most people. Theres a lot of compatibilists about, for instance. > Not one that is both. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.