On Nov 19, 3:11 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rex,
> > Your post reminded me of the quote (of which I cannot recall the source)
> > where someone asked "Who pushes who around inside the brain?", meaning is it
> > the matter that causes thought to move around a certain way, or is it the
> > opposite?  The looped hierarchies described by Hofstadter, if present, make
> > this a difficult question to answer.  If the highest levels of thought and
> > reason are required in your decision making, does it still make sense to say
> > we are slaves of deterministic motions of particles or is that missing a few
> > steps?
> Well, I find it entirely conceivable that fundamental physical laws
> acting on fundamental physical entities (particles, fields, strings,
> whatever) could account for human behavior and ability.
> So if human behavior and ability is what we are trying to explain,
> then I see no reason to invoke thought and reason as causal forces.

Because you think that leads to some overdetermination and it doesn;t.
Shaking Muhammad Ali's hand is shaking Cassius Clay's. It's
a different and equally valid of the same stuff

> And, even if you wanted to, I don't see how they could be made to
> serve that role.  1Z and I discussed this in the other thread.
> We don't invoke thought and reason to explain the abilities and
> behavior of chess playing computers - and while human behavior and
> ability is much more complex and extensive, I think it can be put in
> the same general category.

It's precisely because the microphysics is so complex
that we do use higher level descriptions

> The conscious experience that accompanies human behavior is another
> matter entirely, but I don't think it serves any causal role either.
> > I could not perfectly predict your behavior without creating a full
> > simulation of your brain.  Doing so would instantiate your consciousness.
> > Therefore I cannot determine what you will do without invoking your
> > consciousness, thought, reason, etc.
> I wouldn't necessarily agree that a full computer simulation of a
> human brain would produce conscious experience.
> Maybe it's true.  Maybe it's not.  I have serious doubts.
> I'm not a physicalist, or a dualist, but rather an accidental
> idealist.  Or maybe an idealistic accidentalist?  One or the other.
> > I do not disagree with your assertion that something must be either caused
> > or random, but does _what_ caused you to do something have any bearing?  If
> > your mind is the cause, does that count as free will?
> Even if that were the case, there must be *something* that connects
> the mind to the choice.  Otherwise how can you say that the mind is
> the cause of the choice?

> So what is the nature of that connective "something"?

> If it is a rule or a law, then the choice was determined by the rule/law.

Nope. That reason causes choice causes action
 does not mean reason was itself caused.

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