Bruno,

"It is simpler to assume that we do have a relation with reality. If not you
fall in solipsism."

This doesn't work for me, we can go into this more deeply point by point,
but suffice it to say that reality is not something separate from us....
people always make this mistake.... we are reality, we are a part of
reality, and our experiences are perception dependent, in some naive and
rudimentary sense, and our experience is physiologically, environmentally
and conceptually conditioned, always... reality is a word that is losing
much meaning for me nowadays....

and as in response to the "we".... it is in the old Augustinean sense....
where you know what it is and paradoxically you don't know what it is....

final quesiton.... has anyone here studied Hegel indepthly... I am starting
to think that that is important to do.... and I'm getting ready to take it
up.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 01 Jul 2011, at 08:15, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
>
>  "but I prefer to think of physics as a collection of models, models
>> that map the territory, but are never the territory itself. "
>>
>> who's to say that there even is a territory or what it is?
>>
>
> We assume this. Science start from theories, that is assumption.
>
>
>
>
>
>> It seems to me that we are all presupposing some vague notion of
>> "reality" to begin with, a notion as ambiguous, hypothetical, elusive,
>> and complex as "god".
>>
>
> I appreciate this. That is why science is the best tool of the serious
> theologian.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> we presuppose and pre-define a "reality" that we are trying to catch
>> an adequate glimpse of.
>>
>> we project a pre-conceived notion of a goal and then go for it.
>>
>> As Nietzsche pointed out, perhaps there is no such thing as truth and
>> reality, and even if there was, perhaps they are not only in some
>> sense presupposed and implicitly pre-defined, but that they may even
>> be highly overvalued.
>>
>
> What I try to explain is that if we assume that we are machine, then we
> don't need more than (N, + *), ontologically.
> In science we are always modest, and never know-for-sure if our theories
> are true. We can only hope to be refuted.
>
> Science is not the truth per se. Science is doubt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> If reality is conceived of like a Kantian "thing-in-itself" that is
>> essentially Other then you and inaccessible, but you are trying to
>> infer a conception of it..... what kind of conceptually conditioned
>> "reality" is that?
>>
>
> It is simpler to assume that we do have a relation with reality. If not you
> fall in solipsism.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I'm only thinking of reality here as in some "fundamental" and
>> "systematic" sense.
>>
>> Before we think of science or physics as the royal road to reality,
>>
>
> If we are machine, physics is not the royal road. But consciousness and
> numbers (or finite things) are, and then it can be shown how the physical
> realm emerge from the number, and this in a way which makes it testable.
> Science does not exist, but some human can develop a scientific attitude,
> which is a modest doubting skeptical ability which departs from the
> authoritative arguments.
> Given than the most fundamental science (theology) is still in the hands of
> "authorities", and has still not yet come back in academy, we can say that
> science has not yet really begun. We have not yet the right to doubt in
> theology (be it the atheist theology, or the conventional theologies).
>
>
>
>
>
>  we
>> have to recognize that we are the ones presupposing and preconceiving
>> and predefining notions of reality to begin with.
>>
>
> What do you mean by "we"? Is the term "we" used for the universal numbers,
> or we the mammals, or we the homeotherm animals, the creature of earth?,
> etc.
>
> If we don't make theories, we cannot be shown wrong, and we cannot
> progress. Science is a path from doubts to even more doubts.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 11, 7:51 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Instrumentalism, anyone?
>>>
>>> http://www.americanscientist.**org/issues/id.12395,y.2011,no.**
>>> 3,content..<http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.12395,y.2011,no.3,content..>
>>> ..
>>>
>>> The range of phenomena physics has explained is more than impressive;
>>> it underlies the whole of modern civilization. Nevertheless, as a
>>> physicist travels along his (in this case) career, the hairline cracks
>>> in the edifice become more apparent, as does the dirt swept under the
>>> rug, the fudges and the wholesale swindles, with the disconcerting
>>> result that the totality occasionally appears more like Bruegel’s
>>> Tower of Babel as dreamt by a modern slumlord, a ramshackle structure
>>> of compartmentalized models soldered together into a skewed heap of
>>> explanations as the whole jury-rigged monstrosity tumbles skyward.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Such examples abound throughout physics. Rather than pretending that
>>> they don’t exist, physics educators would do well to acknowledge when
>>> they invoke the Wizard working the levers from behind the curtain.
>>> Even towards the end of the twentieth century, physics was regarded as
>>> received Truth, a revelation of the face of God. Some physicists may
>>> still believe that, but I prefer to think of physics as a collection
>>> of models, models that map the territory, but are never the territory
>>> itself. That may smack of defeatism to many, but ultimate answers are
>>> not to be grasped by mortals. Physicists have indeed gone further than
>>> other scientists in describing the natural world; they should not
>>> confuse description with understanding.
>>>
>>
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