# Re: group

```On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:44 AM, Constantine Pseudonymous
<bsor...@gmail.com>wrote:```
```
> it seems to me that there are certain preconditions that need to be in
> place in order for us to exist, and that furthermore and taking a step
> back, those preconditions necessitate further preconditions to have
> been in place in order for them to exist.
>
> so the real question is, is there perhaps a subtler order of
> preconditions that is or needed to be in place that could account for
> the subtler order of phenomena we perceive in the first person etc.
>
>
>
If you agree with the idea that everything that exists either has a cause or
does not have a cause it leads to the conclusion that there must be some
self-existent thing.  So long as something has a cause, it as you said,
necessitates the existence of other things.  If you followed this chain of
causes far enough you would find that it either stops or goes on forever.
If it stops then you have found that self-existent thing (which exists
without any prior causes).  If it goes on forever, it is either a loop or an
infinitely long chain.  Either the causal loop or the infinite chain may be
considered self-existent objects, as they themselves have no ultimate cause.

If you take mathematical truth to exist without a cause, for example, the
fact that Pi is less than 4, or that 28 is a perfect number, or that the
12th element of the Fibbonacci number is 89, then you can see how
mathematical truth defines mathematical structures.  For example, the truth
of where *z**n*+1 = *z**n*2 + *c*
diverges for any point on the complex plane defines an infinitely large and
varied structure known as the Mandelbrot set.  Likewise, various solutions
to the equations of string theory may define the mathematical structure much
like our observed physical universe.

Mathematical truth seems like a good stopping point in the chain of
causality, because it is difficult to see how the truth of 1+1 = 2 could
have a cause.

Jason

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