# Re: group

```Your interpretation of mathematics isn't even worth responding to, but
your critique of preconditions is pretty interesting... It seems like
you're saying that there are no actual preconditions, there is only
flow and transformation + a zenos paradox.... Necesitating symbolic
thought to combat the issue. But symbolic thought doesn't help either,
it just converts the problem into a new form.```
```
On Sunday, July 3, 2011, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:44 AM, Constantine Pseudonymous
&lt;bsor...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; it seems to me that there are certain preconditions that need to be in
&gt; place in order for us to exist, and that furthermore and taking a step
&gt; back, those preconditions necessitate further preconditions to have
&gt; been in place in order for them to exist.
&gt;
&gt; so the real question is, is there perhaps a subtler order of
&gt; preconditions that is or needed to be in place that could account for
&gt; the subtler order of phenomena we perceive in the first person etc.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; If you agree with the idea that everything that exists either has
a cause or does not have a cause it leads to the conclusion that there
must be some self-existent thing.  So long as something has a cause,
it as you said, necessitates the existence of other things.  If you
followed this chain of causes far enough you would find that it either
stops or goes on forever.  If it stops then you have found that
self-existent thing (which exists without any prior causes).  If it
goes on forever, it is either a loop or an infinitely long chain.
Either the causal loop or the infinite chain may be considered
self-existent objects, as they themselves have no ultimate cause.
&gt;
&gt; If you take mathematical truth to exist without a cause, for
example, the fact that Pi is less than 4, or that 28 is a perfect
number, or that the 12th element of the Fibbonacci number is 89, then
you can see how mathematical truth defines mathematical structures.
For example, the truth of where zn+1 = zn2 + c
&gt; diverges for any point on the complex plane defines an infinitely
large and varied structure known as the Mandelbrot set.  Likewise,
various solutions to the equations of string theory may define the
mathematical structure much like our observed physical universe.
&gt;
&gt; Mathematical truth seems like a good stopping point in the chain
of causality, because it is difficult to see how the truth of 1+1 = 2
could have a cause.
&gt;
&gt; Jason
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
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