On 17 Aug 2011, at 20:07, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/17/2011 10:36 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 16.08.2011 20:47 meekerdb said the following:
On 8/16/2011 11:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Yes, this is why in my first post, I said consider God's Turing
machine (free from our limitations). Then it is obvious that
with the appropriate tape, a physical system can be approximated
to any desired level of accuracy so long as it is predictable.
Colin said such models of physics or chemistry are impossible, so
I hope he elaborates on what makes these systems unpredictable.
I have to repeat that the current simulation technology just does
not scale. With it even God will not help. The only way that I
could imagine is that God's Turing machine is based on completely
different simulation technology (this however means that our
current knowledge of physical laws and/or numerics is wrong).
Scale doesn't matter at the level of theoretical possibility.
UD is the most inefficient possible way to compute this universe -
but he only cares that it's possible. All universal Turing machines
are equivalent so it doesn't matter what God's is based on. Maybe
just mean the world is not computable in the sense that it is
nomologically impossible to compute it faster than just letting it
I understand what you say. On the other hand however, it is still
good to look at the current level of simulation technology,
especially when people make predictions on what happens in the
future (in other messages the possibility of brain simulation and
talk about physico-chemical processes).
From such a viewpoint, even a level of one-cell simulation is not
reachable in the foreseeable future. Hence, in my view, after the
discussion about theoretical limits it would be good to look at the
reality. It might probably help to think the assumptions over.
I would say that it is small practical things that force us to
reconsider our conceptions.
I agree with that sentiment. That's why I often try to think of
consciousness in terms of what it would mean to provide a Mars Rover
with consciousness. According to Bruno the ones we've sent to Mars
were already conscious, since their computers were capable of Lobian
I don't remember having said this. I even doubt that Mars Rover is
universal, although that might be serendipitously possible
(universality is very cheap), in which case it would be as conscious
as a human being under a high dose of salvia (a form of consciousness
quite disconnected from terrestrial realities). But it is very
probable that it is not Löbian. I don't see why they would have given
the induction axioms to Mars Rover (the induction axioms is what gives
the Löbian self-referential power).
But clearly they did not have human-like consciousness (or
intelligence). I think it much more likely that we could make a
Mars Rover with consciousness and intelligence somewhat similar to
humans using von Neumann computers or artificial neural nets than
by trying to actually simulate a brain.
I think consciousness might be attributed to the virgin (non
programmed) universal machine, but such consciousness is really the
basic consciousness of everyone, before the contingent differentiation
on the histories. LUMs, on the contrary, have a self-consciousness,
even when basically virgin: they makes a distinction between them and
some possible independent or transcendental reality.
No doubt the truth is a bit far more subtle, if only because there are
intermediate stage between UMs and LUMs.
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