On 18.08.2011 16:24 Bruno Marchal said the following:
On 17 Aug 2011, at 20:07, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/17/2011 10:36 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 16.08.2011 20:47 meekerdb said the following:
On 8/16/2011 11:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
Yes, this is why in my first post, I said consider God's
Turing machine (free from our limitations). Then it is
obvious that with the appropriate tape, a physical system
can be approximated to any desired level of accuracy so
long as it is predictable. Colin said such models of
physics or chemistry are impossible, so I hope he
elaborates on what makes these systems unpredictable.
I have to repeat that the current simulation technology just
does not scale. With it even God will not help. The only way
that I could imagine is that God's Turing machine is based on
completely different simulation technology (this however
means that our current knowledge of physical laws and/or
numerics is wrong).
Scale doesn't matter at the level of theoretical possibility.
Bruno's UD is the most inefficient possible way to compute this
universe - but he only cares that it's possible. All universal
Turing machines are equivalent so it doesn't matter what God's
is based on. Maybe you just mean the world is not computable in
the sense that it is nomologically impossible to compute it
faster than just letting it happen.
I understand what you say. On the other hand however, it is still
good to look at the current level of simulation technology,
especially when people make predictions on what happens in the
future (in other messages the possibility of brain simulation and
talk about physico-chemical processes).
From such a viewpoint, even a level of one-cell simulation is not
reachable in the foreseeable future. Hence, in my view, after
the discussion about theoretical limits it would be good to look
at the reality. It might probably help to think the assumptions
I would say that it is small practical things that force us to
reconsider our conceptions.
I agree with that sentiment. That's why I often try to think of
consciousness in terms of what it would mean to provide a Mars
Rover with consciousness. According to Bruno the ones we've sent to
Mars were already conscious, since their computers were capable of
I don't remember having said this. I even doubt that Mars Rover is
universal, although that might be serendipitously possible
(universality is very cheap), in which case it would be as conscious
as a human being under a high dose of salvia (a form of consciousness
quite disconnected from terrestrial realities). But it is very
probable that it is not Löbian. I don't see why they would have given
the induction axioms to Mars Rover (the induction axioms is what
gives the Löbian self-referential power).
But clearly they did not have human-like consciousness (or
intelligence). I think it much more likely that we could make a
Mars Rover with consciousness and intelligence somewhat similar to
humans using von Neumann computers or artificial neural nets than
by trying to actually simulate a brain.
I think consciousness might be attributed to the virgin (non
programmed) universal machine, but such consciousness is really the
basic consciousness of everyone, before the contingent
differentiation on the histories. LUMs, on the contrary, have a
self-consciousness, even when basically virgin: they makes a
distinction between them and some possible independent or
No doubt the truth is a bit far more subtle, if only because there
are intermediate stage between UMs and LUMs.
When I search on Google Scholar
then there is only one hit (I guess that this is Bruno's thesis). When I
there are some more hits with for example Loebian embodiment. I do not
not know what it means but in my view it would be interesting to build a
robot with a Loebian logic and research it. In my view, it is not enough
to state that there is already some consciousness there. It would be
rather necessary to research on what it actually means. Say it has
visual consciousness experience, it feels pain or something else.
It would be interesting to see what people do in this area. For example,
"Loebian embodiment" sounds interesting and it would be nice to find
some review about it.
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