On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Sep 21, 12:20 pm, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Sorry to jump in here.. > > > > > The Mandelbrot set has a definition which we can use to explore it's > > properties. > > In this kind of context, I think it is useful to make the distinction > that the Mandlebrot 'set' IS a definition. > Then the important question is whether humans had to write it down for it to exist. > > Would you say the set was non-existent before Mandelbrot > > found it? > > I would say that it is still non-existent. What exists would be a > graphic representation, for instance, of the results of thousands of > individual function calls which require our visual sense to be grouped > into a set. Our recognition of pattern against the set of generic > iterations of the equation plotted visually is what gives it > explorable properties: The concrete event of the plotting on a screen > or pencil and paper. > > Yet we have only seen an infinitesimally small part of it. What ontological status shall we ascribe to the unseen parts? > > If we have to define something for it to exist, then what > > was this universe before there were conscious beings in it? > > The universe always has/is/results from awareness. > > Then you get into a bootstrap problem. How did the first aware creation come to be if there was not already some structure with a previous history during which that creature evolved? Your idea suggests the universe and its 5 billion history were created when the first life form opened its eyes. This idea is not unlike Wheeler's participatory universe, which I think has some merit. With Wheeler's idea, however, both awareness and the universe feed on each other and affect each other. With your idea it sounds like you think awareness drives everything. How do you explain the physical laws (the fact that there are laws at all) if sense and awareness are all that are required? > > > > > The question of whether or not some number has some properties > > > is dependent only on the structure that defines it, not the > > > 'discoverer' there of. > > > > What created the definition of the universe we are in? > > Our neurology. > > > Our neurology is contingent on the universe. What I was asking is if we need to define everything in order that it exist, how can we explain our own existence? Obviously things can exist independently of our mathematical definitions or discoveries. Our universe being a case in point. > > > > > Without a separate and concrete space to act an an extrinsic > > > distinguisher (sorry for the sad wording, a better one is > > > requested!) of the numbers from each other, no pattern at all can > > > exist. > > > > Consider that the game of life is merely a progression of integers, > > defined by a simple function. Yet all kinds of patterns and motion > > are supported. Now consider a three dimensional game of life: it > > might enable simple "particles" that move through it's "space". > > > > > Here the 2-dimensional space of the computer monitor is playing the > > > role and allows us to contrast the symbols representing the digits, > > > but I hope that my point is understood. > > > > It is not what appears to us, but what appears to the beings inside. > > If you sat at a terminal showing all the bits describing this universe > > changing over time your viewing of that screen is not necessary for > > you or I to experience. > > But as beings inside our universe, we DO need material interfaces to > see, feel, and think. What is material but its relation to other material in this universe? > Our eyeballs are necessary for us to see the > world outside of ourselves. It's not enough that the arithmetic of > visual phenomena exists, we cannot contact it through arithmetic means > alone. > > A being that evolved eyes in the game of life could respond to the reception of "game of life photons" just as we do to our photons. You would then have to admit that this being can see (or perhaps you would not, since you have finally admitted your belief in zombies). Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
