On Sep 21, 2011, at 9:11 PM, "Stephen P. King" <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 9/21/2011 9:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 9/21/2011 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Craig Weinberg
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:20 pm, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote:
Sorry to jump in here..
>
> The Mandelbrot set has a definition which we can use to explore
it's
> properties.
In this kind of context, I think it is useful to make the
distinction
that the Mandlebrot 'set' IS a definition.
Then the important question is whether humans had to write it down
for it to exist.
[SPK]
Why is the question of whether some set of properties occur
given some set of rules and the implementation of those rules by
some process tied to the existence or non-existence of an object?
Since when was it even a meaningful question? Is
existence a property? No, it is not!
My point is that existence is independent of our implementing or
discovering such properties. Mandelbrot didn't have to discover
the definition of the Mandelbrot set for the set to have the
properties it has. He only had to discover it for us to learn
about some of its properties. If there is another Mathematical
object, and one of its properties is that it contains self-
reproducing patterns which behave intelligently and form
civilizations, we need not find such objects nor simulate them for
those intelligent agents to be.
[SPK]
And my point is that the *properties* cannot be said to be
definite absent specification by equation, rule or equivalent.
Existence is not contingent. Period.
I agree existence is not contingent. But I go further and say the
properties of those extant things is not contingent either.
Would you say the set was non-existent before Mandelbrot
> found it?
I would say that it is still non-existent. What exists would be a
graphic representation, for instance, of the results of thousands of
individual function calls which require our visual sense to be
grouped
into a set. Our recognition of pattern against the set of generic
iterations of the equation plotted visually is what gives it
explorable properties: The concrete event of the plotting on a
screen
or pencil and paper.
Yet we have only seen an infinitesimally small part of it. What
ontological status shall we ascribe to the unseen parts?
[SPK]
Currently unknown. "...what we cannot talk about we must pass
over in silence. " or admit that we are only speculating.
The properties are onknown to us, or to you. Doesn't mean it is
unknown to everyone. We know that if we look at a spot we have
never looked at before we will see something. Each time we conduct
this "experiment" we affirm that it existed, even though we had no
confirmation by previously looking at it. Why should we ever
assume it's existence as a complete and coherent structure is
unknown?
[SPK]
No, experiments reveal properties, not existence. Again,
existence is not contingent on observation or measurement or
anything at all.
This is what I have been saying!
Thus the entire question of "does it exist" is a red herring.
There are many people, even on this list, who would say most possible
worlds do nit exist. So there isca reason to affirm the existence of
things we cannot see or define, for we cannot see nor define everything.
> If we have to define something for it to exist, then what
> was this universe before there were conscious beings in it?
The universe always has/is/results from awareness.
Then you get into a bootstrap problem. How did the first aware
creation come to be if there was not already some structure with a
previous history during which that creature
evolved? Your idea suggests the universe and its 5 billion
history were created when the first life form opened its eyes.
[SPK]
A bootstrap problem can only occur if there is a boundary that
cannot be overstepped or crossed by some means.
Yes, like evolving a conscious brain without having had an
environment or history of evolution.
[SPK]
Obviously that cannot happen so why bring it up?
Craig brought it up. (see above) "this unuverse results from awareness"
Why is it assumed that there had to be a structure with no
prior history that somehow just appears and all else proceeds from
it? We chastise silly creationists for making the same claim!
Who is assuming this?
Existence is eternal,
Yes.
just because we observe a finite universe does not mean that the
total universe is not infinite or that that finite observed
universe is the totality of existence.
Yes.
It could be just the simple fact that a finite system (within an
infinite Totality) with finite physical resources can only resolve
a finite universe (which is just a finite subset of the Totality.
Not too complicated at all.
Yes.
There is no need to concoct weird explanations such as
Singularities and Inflatons and Dark Energy, just use some
observation, logic and a liberal dose of Occam's razor.
Okay.
This idea is not unlike Wheeler's participatory universe, which I
think has some merit. With Wheeler's idea, however, both
awareness and the universe feed on each other and affect each
other. With your idea it sounds like you think awareness drives
everything. How do you explain the physical laws (the fact that
there are laws at all) if sense and awareness are all that are
required?
[SPK]
You might not have noticed that Craig's thesis is symmetric
with respect to "sense" and "thing". He calls them the Omni and the
Acme, if I recall correctly.
Sounds like the pre-established harmony of Leibniz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-established_harmony
Which explains very little, besides "Well that's how God decided it
should be"
[SPK]
/smile. I recall pointing that out to Craig in a phone chat I
had some time ago, but you are completely missing Craig's thesis.
Perhaps it would help me and others on this list to understand it if
you provided us with your understanding of his thesis.
>
> > The question of whether or not some number has some
properties
> > is dependent only on the structure that defines it, not the
> > 'discoverer' there of.
>
> What created the definition of the universe we are in?
Our neurology.
Our neurology is contingent on the universe. What I was asking is
if we need to define everything in order that it exist, how can we
explain our own existence? Obviously things can exist
independently of our mathematical definitions or discoveries. Our
universe being a case in point.
[SPK]
We are aware of only a tiny sliver of what exists.
I agree.
Naive realism is a form of hysterical blindness, IMHO.
Idealism, in contrast to realism, says what we are blind of does
not exist.
This notion that somehow the existence of an entity is linked to
its properties is worse than fallacious. It is dumb.
An object might have two mutually incompatible properties, which
implies it cannot exist anywhere.
[SPK]
So if it cannot exist, because it is self-contradictory how can
it haev any properties at all?
I should have said nothing exists having self contradictory properties.
Existence is prior to properties.
You're right.
>
> > Without a separate and concrete space to act an an extrinsic
> > distinguisher (sorry for the sad wording, a better one is
> > requested!) of the numbers from each other, no pattern at all
can
> > exist.
>
> Consider that the game of life is merely a progression of
integers,
> defined by a simple function. Yet all kinds of patterns and
motion
> are supported. Now consider a three dimensional game of life: it
> might enable simple "particles" that move through it's "space".
>
> > Here the 2-dimensional space of the computer monitor is
playing the
> > role and allows us to contrast the symbols representing the
digits,
> > but I hope that my point is understood.
>
> It is not what appears to us, but what appears to the beings
inside.
> If you sat at a terminal showing all the bits describing this
universe
> changing over time your viewing of that screen is not necessary
for
> you or I to experience.
But as beings inside our universe, we DO need material interfaces to
see, feel, and think.
What is material but its relation to other material in this
universe?
[SPK]
Correct, but the kind of relation that it is matters, literally!
Our eyeballs are necessary for us to see the
world outside of ourselves. It's not enough that the arithmetic of
visual phenomena exists, we cannot contact it through arithmetic
means
alone.
A being that evolved eyes in the game of life could respond to the
reception of "game of life photons" just as we do to our photons.
You would then have to admit that this being
can see (or perhaps you would not, since you have finally admitted
your belief in zombies).
Jason
--
{SPK]
Umm, where in the rules of the Game of Life is there an
analogue of a photon?
A glider could be seen seen in a similar way to a photon. There
could be a system which can register the impact of a glider and
convey and process this information, just like a cone cell in the
retina can. In previous posts I showed how Turing machines have
already been implemented in GoL, so it is possible to have thinking
feeling beings in the GoL if you accept mechanism.
The game merely states somethign like "if your neighboring cell is
empty do change to x state".
At the lowest level of physics, there might be a similarly simple
set of rules.
See:
http://htwins.net/scale/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory
There is no photon there as this 'neighborhood state detection
system depends on a global synchronization of the cell detections
and transitions,
Our physics is also local. (With Everett)
thus there is no signal delay nor permittivity and permeability
functions involved.
There is a signal delay: information can only move one cell at a
time. Similarly photons can only move one Plank length in one
Plank time.
One would have to radically alter the rules of the GoL to make
photon facsimiles appear.
A Turing machine in the game of life could produce any simulated
environment.
http://rendell-attic.org/gol/tm.htm
Jason
--
Y
{SPK]
I look forward to shaking hands with these folks. When will the
GoL creatures attempt communication with us?
When we decide to explore their world through simulation and then
either abduct one of them into our world, or we inject ourselves into
their universe. Greg egan explored this in "permutation city".
Jason
Onward!
Stephen
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ith these folks. When will the GoL creatures attempt communication
with us?
Onward!
Stephen
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