On Oct 9, 12:09 am, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 8, 12:12 am, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Of course all the parts of the car determine how it will move! You can
> >> >> predict exactly what the car will do if you know how it works and you
> >> >> have the inputs.
> >> > What you are talking about is either tautological and obvious or
> >> > delusional. if I send you the owner's manual of my car, you can tell
> >> > me where I'm going to drive it tomorrow? So what are you talking
> >> > about? That if you observe a car turning, you can tell which way it's
> >> > turning or something?
> >> If you send me the plans of your car and the inputs - which way you
> >> intend to steer and so on -
> > *which
> > way
> > you
> > intend
> > to steer*
> > WHAAAAT?????
> > Did you think you were just going to slip that in and I wouldn't
> > notice?
> > So cool, as long as I give you the schematics of my car and tell you
> > where I'm going to drive to, you will be able to deduce where I'm
> > going to drive to? Wow, that's almost better than nothing at all.
> > There is no way that you are serious. You are trolling me, brother.
> Quentin responded to this.
I'm not sure what he means. If he is pointing out that we were talking
about determining where a car was going to go and not about the
intentions of the driver, then I agree with him. Your entire argument
is that there must be some physical cause within neuron which
determines what it does. I pointed out that you cannot determine where
a car is going to go based on physical observations of the car. You
then erroneously reached for a deus ex machina by suddenly
contradicting yourself to say that indeed the car's direction cannot
be determined by physical observation but in fact you would need an
anecdotal report from a subjective entity called a 'driver'.
> Apart from the philosophical issues there are two scientific issues
> you misunderstand. The first is what it means to simulate something.
> It appears you think that the simulation must include the whole
> universe and not just the thing being simulated.
No, it's just that I understand that simulation is a subjective
proposition. There is no such thing as an objective simulation. That
would require that one thing be replaced by another which is identical
in every way, which is impossible or else it would be the same thing.
I have a much more realistic understanding of simulation, that it in
fact depends upon which criteria can be perceived by what audience and
the degree to which those thresholds of perceptual substitution can be
exceeded. Since we have no idea whatsoever how deeply inseparable the
physical underpinnings of the psyche are, there is absolutely no
reason to arbitrarily assume a particular substitution level.
> The second is the
> belief you seem to have that microscopic events can happen without an
> empirically observable cause. You cite scientific articles discussing
> spontaneous neural activity and you think that that is what they are
> talking about: that the transmembrane voltage in a neuron can just
> change because the subject wills it.
It's not my belief, it is the scientific consensus. If your beliefs
that subjective will does not change electromagnetic current in the
nervous system have any validity, then all you have to do is give me a
link or two of studies which support this. Since you cannot, I will
assume that underneath it all, you understand that you are factually
incorrect but are incapable of admitting it, even to yourself. How
else do you explain voluntary action being different from involuntary
actions? Do you think that when you take control of your breathing
manually that nothing has changed in your nervous system? That we
suddenly have a hallucination that we are controlling our own
Your accusations are empty. Your view explains nothing.
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