On Friday, August 17, 2012 10:48:04 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> Hi Craig, 
>
> On 15 Aug 2012, at 11:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>
> > in case the special characters don't come out... 
> > 
> > I was thinking about your primitive of arithmetic truth (numbers, 0,   
> > +, and *, right?) and then your concept of ‘the dreams of   
> > numbers’, interviewing Lobian Machines, etc and came up with this. 
> > 
> > One single irreducible digit ॐ (Om) which represents a self- 
> > dividing continuum of infinite perpendicular dialectics between   
> > eidetic dream states (in which dream~numbers escape their numerical   
> > identities as immersive qualitative experiences) and entopic non- 
> > dream states (in which number~dreams escape their dream nature as   
> > literal algebra-geometries). 
> > 
> I use such term more literally. I am not sure I can understand this,   
> even if there is some genuine analogy. 
>

Think of it like π, except that instead of circumference and diameter, 
there is eidetic-figurative and entopic-literal presentation modalities.

>
> The dreaming number are usually very big concrete number. They dream   
> by encoding computational state of person, relatively to some   
> universal number, which are encoding universal machine relatively to   
> some other one, and the initial one can be chosen arbitrary. Those are   
> not symbolic number, but real encoding number, a bit like the genome   
> if you want. 
>

Why would that result in a dream? It seems shrouded in obfuscating 
self-reference. Why would anything that has been encoded ever need to be 
decoded if the machine can fluently process the encoded form? Why would it 
need any other form - especially if it is all made of numbers?

What I am saying is that if you are going to invoke a possibility of 
dreams, that has to be grounded in the terms that you are laying out as 
primitive. Why would dreams leap out of mechanical relations? Even if there 
was some purpose for it, how could that actually take place - what are the 
dreamings made of?

My view is that it may be the case that everything that is not matter 
across space is experience through time - by definition, ontologically. 
There is no other form or content possible in the cosmos. Numbers are 
experiences as they must be inferred by computational agents and cannot 
exist independently of them. What my formulas do is to propose a precise 
relation between dream-time (including logical algebras) and matter-space 
(including topological geometries). To do this we need to invoke a 
continuity between them which is a perpendicular axis which runs from the 
literal (tight equivalence; induction is accomplished through linear 
arithmetic logic) to the figurative/metaphorical (loose thematic 
association; induction is accomplished through linear logic *as well as 
*elliptical 
cross-context leaps).


>
>
> > 
> > This continuum f (ॐ(Om)), runs from infinitely solipsistic/private   
> > first person subjectivity (calling that Aleph ℵ)to infinitely   
> > discrete/public third person mechanism (calling that Omega Ω), so   
> > that at ℵ,any given dream is experienced as 99.99…9% dream and   
> > 0.00…1% number and at Ω (Omega), any given machine or number is   
> > presented as 99.99…9% number and 0.00…1% dream. 
> > 
>
> ? 
>


I'm mapping out this literal to figurative axis, as it modifies the axis of 
subject to object presentations. The more an experience extends 
figuratively/metaphorically, the less it extends literally/mechanically.

> 
> > The halfway point between the ℵ (Aleph) and Ω (Omega) axis is the   
> > perpendicular axis f (-ॐ(Om)) which is the high and low   
> > correspondence between the literal dream and figurative number (or   
> > figurative dream and literal number depending on whether you are   
> > using the dream-facing epistemology or the number-facing   
> > epistemology). This axis runs from tight equivalence (“=”   
> > equality) to broadly elliptical potential set membership (“…”   
> > ellipsis) 
> > 
> > So it looks something like this: 
> > 
> > f(ॐ) ⊇ {ℵ “…” ⊥ “=” Ω} 
> > 
> > function (Om) is superset or equal to the continuum ranging from   
> > Aleph to ellipsis perpendicular/orthogonal to the inverse range from   
> > equality to Omega). 
> > 
> > To go further, it could be said that at Ω(Omega), ॐ (Om) expresses   
> > as 10|O (one, zero, line segment, circle referring to the   
> > quantitative algebraic and geometric perpendicular primitives) while   
> > at ℵ (Aleph), ॐ (Om) expresses as 
> > יהוה (tetragrammaton or yod, hay, vov, hay, or in perhaps more   
> > familiar metaphor, ♣♠♥♦(clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds) 
> > 
> > where: 
> > 
> > ♣ clubs (wands) =Fire, spiritual, tactile 
> > ♠ spades (swords) = Air, mental, auditory 
> > ♥ hearts (cups) =Water, emotional, visual 
> > ♦ diamonds (pentacles/coins) = Earth, physical, olfactory-gustatory 
> > 
> > Note that tactile and auditory modalities tune us into ourselves and   
> > each others sensemaking (selves and minds), while the visual and   
> > olfactory/gustatory sense modalities are about objectifying realism   
> > of the world (egos or objectified selves/self-images and bodies). It   
> > should be obvious that ♣ clubs (wands) and ♠ spades (swords) are   
> > stereotypically masculine and abstracting forces, while ♥ hearts   
> > (cups) and ♦ diamonds (pentacles/coins) are stereotypically   
> > feminine objectified fields. 
> > 
> > Sorry for the mumbo jumbo, but it is the only way to be non- 
> > reductive when approaching the qualitative side. 
> > 
> I don't think so. Aristotle invented modal logic to treat in the   
> quantitative way non reductive qualitative notion. 
>
>
What I am saying though is that *any quantitative treatment of qualitative 
experience is an unrecoverably catastrophic reduction*. Modal logic can 
make a toy model of experience, by removing all of the experience and 
replacing it with a meaningless variable. It is to say 'here, instead of 
your baby, let's just call it 'consumer of diapers and milk' and design a 
nursery based on the statistics derived from that consumption. What is 
needed is a way to reference phenomenological qualities which expresses not 
merely non-comp, but explicitly asserts quality and a view of the universe 
from the perspective of irreducible quality.


> > We can’t pretend to talk about the eidetic, dream like   
> > perpendicular of number logic while using the purely empirical terms   
> > of arithmetic reduction. We need symbols that can only refer to   
> > named qualities rather than enumerated quantities. 
> > 
> This is exactly what happen when you define the first person by the   
> knower. Bp & p, or if you prefer 
>
> provable(p) and true(p), 
>

provable and true are not first person qualities, they are epistemological 
quantifications. First person would be more like great(p) and superior(p).


> gives a modality which can provably be shown qualitative, and non   
> formalizable in arithmetic. It leads to a logic (know as S4Grz) which   
> describes something which is absolutely impossible to reduce to any   
> number relations or even anything third person describable notion,   
> even infinite one. 
>

That doesn't mean it is qualitative, only that it is so obscurely 
arithmetic that arithmetic itself cannot quantify it. What quality does 
this modality have? Is it shiny? Is it spicy? Does it get tired?


> You might think I just described it, by Bp & p, or by "provable(p) and   
> true(p)", but this is not the case, as I use some of your intuition   
> about truth, which cannot be arithmetized by itself, by a famous   
> result of Gödel and Tarski (independently). 
> It happens that we do have a good intuition of many truth, and machine   
> can indeed describe better and better approximations of the truth   
> concept, but the limit of it, used here, cannot be. So by using both   
> the comp hypothesis, and by studying simple (Löbian) machine (simpler   
> than us) we can develop a formal (quantitative in some sense, at some   
> level, from some point of view) theory concerning the non formal, and   
> even non-formalizable-at-all-by-the-machine, qualities that machine   
> can still refer about. And this can be used to explain why machine are   
> forced to be befuddled by the subjectively-real apparent gap between   
> third and first person attributes. 
>

It seems like you are missing the obvious. Awareness is not just about 
knowing and navigating a set of logical conditions. That can be 
accomplished easily without any awareness. Experienced qualities are 
orthogonal to knowledge and procedural evaluation.
 

>
>
> > Let the ignoring and insulting begin! 
> > 
>
> We don't need that here, I think, nor anywhere. An insult is almost   
> always equivalent with "I have no argument". 
>

I agree.

Craig
 

>
> Bruno 
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
>
>
>
>
On Friday, August 17, 2012 10:48:04 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> Hi Craig, 
>
> On 15 Aug 2012, at 11:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>
> > in case the special characters don't come out... 
> > 
> > I was thinking about your primitive of arithmetic truth (numbers, 0,   
> > +, and *, right?) and then your concept of ‘the dreams of   
> > numbers’, interviewing Lobian Machines, etc and came up with this. 
> > 
> > One single irreducible digit ॐ (Om) which represents a self- 
> > dividing continuum of infinite perpendicular dialectics between   
> > eidetic dream states (in which dream~numbers escape their numerical   
> > identities as immersive qualitative experiences) and entopic non- 
> > dream states (in which number~dreams escape their dream nature as   
> > literal algebra-geometries). 
> > 
> I use such term more literally. I am not sure I can understand this,   
> even if there is some genuine analogy. 
>
> The dreaming number are usually very big concrete number. They dream   
> by encoding computational state of person, relatively to some   
> universal number, which are encoding universal machine relatively to   
> some other one, and the initial one can be chosen arbitrary. Those are   
> not symbolic number, but real encoding number, a bit like the genome   
> if you want. 
>
>
>
> > 
> > This continuum f (ॐ(Om)), runs from infinitely solipsistic/private   
> > first person subjectivity (calling that Aleph ℵ)to infinitely   
> > discrete/public third person mechanism (calling that Omega Ω), so   
> > that at ℵ,any given dream is experienced as 99.99…9% dream and   
> > 0.00…1% number and at Ω (Omega), any given machine or number is   
> > presented as 99.99…9% number and 0.00…1% dream. 
> > 
>
> ? 
> > 
> > The halfway point between the ℵ (Aleph) and Ω (Omega) axis is the   
> > perpendicular axis f (-ॐ(Om)) which is the high and low   
> > correspondence between the literal dream and figurative number (or   
> > figurative dream and literal number depending on whether you are   
> > using the dream-facing epistemology or the number-facing   
> > epistemology). This axis runs from tight equivalence (“=”   
> > equality) to broadly elliptical potential set membership (“…”   
> > ellipsis) 
> > 
> > So it looks something like this: 
> > 
> > f(ॐ) ⊇ {ℵ “…” ⊥ “=” Ω} 
> > 
> > function (Om) is superset or equal to the continuum ranging from   
> > Aleph to ellipsis perpendicular/orthogonal to the inverse range from   
> > equality to Omega). 
> > 
> > To go further, it could be said that at Ω(Omega), ॐ (Om) expresses   
> > as 10|O (one, zero, line segment, circle referring to the   
> > quantitative algebraic and geometric perpendicular primitives) while   
> > at ℵ (Aleph), ॐ (Om) expresses as 
> > יהוה (tetragrammaton or yod, hay, vov, hay, or in perhaps more   
> > familiar metaphor, ♣♠♥♦(clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds) 
> > 
> > where: 
> > 
> > ♣ clubs (wands) =Fire, spiritual, tactile 
> > ♠ spades (swords) = Air, mental, auditory 
> > ♥ hearts (cups) =Water, emotional, visual 
> > ♦ diamonds (pentacles/coins) = Earth, physical, olfactory-gustatory 
> > 
> > Note that tactile and auditory modalities tune us into ourselves and   
> > each others sensemaking (selves and minds), while the visual and   
> > olfactory/gustatory sense modalities are about objectifying realism   
> > of the world (egos or objectified selves/self-images and bodies). It   
> > should be obvious that ♣ clubs (wands) and ♠ spades (swords) are   
> > stereotypically masculine and abstracting forces, while ♥ hearts   
> > (cups) and ♦ diamonds (pentacles/coins) are stereotypically   
> > feminine objectified fields. 
> > 
> > Sorry for the mumbo jumbo, but it is the only way to be non- 
> > reductive when approaching the qualitative side. 
> > 
> I don't think so. Aristotle invented modal logic to treat in the   
> quantitative way non reductive qualitative notion. 
>
>
>
> > We can’t pretend to talk about the eidetic, dream like   
> > perpendicular of number logic while using the purely empirical terms   
> > of arithmetic reduction. We need symbols that can only refer to   
> > named qualities rather than enumerated quantities. 
> > 
> This is exactly what happen when you define the first person by the   
> knower. Bp & p, or if you prefer 
>
> provable(p) and true(p), 
>
> gives a modality which can provably be shown qualitative, and non   
> formalizable in arithmetic. It leads to a logic (know as S4Grz) which   
> describes something which is absolutely impossible to reduce to any   
> number relations or even anything third person describable notion,   
> even infinite one. 
>
> You might think I just described it, by Bp & p, or by "provable(p) and   
> true(p)", but this is not the case, as I use some of your intuition   
> about truth, which cannot be arithmetized by itself, by a famous   
> result of Gödel and Tarski (independently). 
> It happens that we do have a good intuition of many truth, and machine   
> can indeed describe better and better approximations of the truth   
> concept, but the limit of it, used here, cannot be. So by using both   
> the comp hypothesis, and by studying simple (Löbian) machine (simpler   
> than us) we can develop a formal (quantitative in some sense, at some   
> level, from some point of view) theory concerning the non formal, and   
> even non-formalizable-at-all-by-the-machine, qualities that machine   
> can still refer about. And this can be used to explain why machine are   
> forced to be befuddled by the subjectively-real apparent gap between   
> third and first person attributes. 
>
>
> > Let the ignoring and insulting begin! 
> > 
>
> We don't need that here, I think, nor anywhere. An insult is almost   
> always equivalent with "I have no argument". 
>
> Bruno 
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
>
>
>
>

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