On 24 Aug 2012, at 19:46, meekerdb wrote:

On 8/24/2012 9:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 23 Aug 2012, at 15:12, benjayk wrote:

Quantum mechanics includes true subjective randomness already, so by your
own standards nothing that physically exists can be emulated.

That's QM+collapse, but the collapse is not well defined,

It is well defined in epistemic interpretations. But those rely on an implicit dualism.

That is what I thought after reading von Neumann, and London-&-Bauer, but then reading Shimony I realized that such a dualism does not make sense, and that it leads to solipisism.

and many incompatible theories are proposed for it, and Everett showed we don't need it,

But then we need to derive the classical world from the quantum.

We need to derive the appearance of the classical world. This is well explained by Everett+decoherence. With comp we start from classical arithmetic, and we derive the appearance of the quantum, and then we ca use decoherence to explain the re-appearance of the classical physical worlds. It is really:

classical ===> quantum ===> classical

if we assume comp or weaker.
Feynman called the collapse, a collective hallucination, but then with comp so is the wave.

It is misleading to use a non understood controversal idea in a domain (the wave collapse in physics) to apply it on complex non solved problem in another domain (the mind body problem).

There are no known phenomena capable of collapsing the wave,

Decoherence theory provides a mechanism, although the basis problem is open. It is of a piece with the problem of deriving the classical from the quantum.

I have never understood the basis problem. It is quite similar to comp. You have to fix a base to do the math, and then you can show that all appearances, from the first person perspective are independent of the choice of the basis. then we can understand empirically why some bases will seem more important, as natiure did a choice of measuring apparatus for us a long time ago, but all this can be described in any basis. My feeling is that Everett got this right at the start.

nor any known evidences that the wave does collapse.

Collapse appears all the time,

LOL. Show me one.

and a good theory must save appearances.

Everett showed that the appearances are saved, in the memory of the observers.



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