On 24 Aug 2012, at 19:46, meekerdb wrote:

On 8/24/2012 9:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 23 Aug 2012, at 15:12, benjayk wrote:Quantum mechanics includes true subjective randomness already, soby yourown standards nothing that physically exists can be emulated.That's QM+collapse, but the collapse is not well defined,It is well defined in epistemic interpretations. But those rely onan implicit dualism.

`That is what I thought after reading von Neumann, and London-&-Bauer,`

`but then reading Shimony I realized that such a dualism does not make`

`sense, and that it leads to solipisism.`

and many incompatible theories are proposed for it, and Everettshowed we don't need it,But then we need to derive the classical world from the quantum.

`We need to derive the appearance of the classical world. This is well`

`explained by Everett+decoherence.`

`With comp we start from classical arithmetic, and we derive the`

`appearance of the quantum, and then we ca use decoherence to explain`

`the re-appearance of the classical physical worlds. It is really:`

classical ===> quantum ===> classical

if we assume comp or weaker.Feynman called the collapse, a collective hallucination, but thenwith comp so is the wave.It is misleading to use a non understood controversal idea in adomain (the wave collapse in physics) to apply it on complex nonsolved problem in another domain (the mind body problem).There are no known phenomena capable of collapsing the wave,Decoherence theory provides a mechanism, although the basis problemis open. It is of a piece with the problem of deriving theclassical from the quantum.

`I have never understood the basis problem. It is quite similar to`

`comp. You have to fix a base to do the math, and then you can show`

`that all appearances, from the first person perspective are`

`independent of the choice of the basis. then we can understand`

`empirically why some bases will seem more important, as natiure did a`

`choice of measuring apparatus for us a long time ago, but all this can`

`be described in any basis. My feeling is that Everett got this right`

`at the start.`

nor any known evidences that the wave does collapse.Collapse appears all the time,

LOL. Show me one.

and a good theory must save appearances.

`Everett showed that the appearances are saved, in the memory of the`

`observers.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.