Hi Brian Tenneson 

I'm just to establish the fact that numbers are a priori
and so not created by man. Given that, it doesn't matter if sets are
a priori or not. Presumably (I am not a mathematician)  you cannot 
have sets without numbers, so the numbers rule.





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/6/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Brian Tenneson 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-06, 10:28:51
Subject: Re: Where do numbers and geometry come from ?


All numbers can be defined in terms of sets.? The question becomes this:
do sets have ontological primacy relative to mankind or are sets invented or 
created by mankind?


On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:11 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Stephen P. King 
?
?
Yes, of course, but I wanted a more obvious, dramatic?xample.
The philosophy of mathematics says something like the numbers 
belong to a static or eternal world, change?tself ?s a property of geometry.
Numbers and geometry thus belong to the platonic world,
which is forbidden or at least not consistent with the philosophy
of materialism, IMHO.
?
If numbers are platonic,? wonder what the? presumably materialist 
Steven Hawkings has to say about their origin in his recent
book on numbers.
?
?
?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/6/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Stephen P. King 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-06, 07:53:18
Subject: Re: Could we have invented the prime numbers ?


Dear Roger,

?? Could the mere possibility of being a number (without the specificity of 
which one) be considered to be "there from the beginning"?

On 9/6/2012 7:47 AM, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Stathis Papaioannou
?
If the prime numbers were there from the beginning, before man,
then? I think they were mind-created (platonic) not brain-created (human 
creations).
?
Are the prime numbers an invention by man or one of man's discoveries ??
?
I believe that the prime numbers are not a human invention,
they were there from the beginning. Humans can discover
them by brute calculation, but there is a pattern to them
(except for 1, 3 and 5, spaced? 6 apart, plus or minus one)
?
Thus 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 etc.
?
?
for n>5, they can be placed +-1 on a grid with a spacing of 6
?
That spacing seems to me at least to be a priori, out of man's control.
?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/6/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Stathis Papaioannou 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-06, 01:24:31
Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One


On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> But you couldn't realise you felt different if the part of your brain
>> responsible for realising were receiving exactly the same inputs from
>> the rest of the brain. So you could feel different, or feel nothing,
>> but maintain the delusional belief that nothing had changed.
>>
>>
>
> That's begging the question. You are assuming that the brain is a machine
> which produces consciousness. I think that the brain is the three
> dimensional shadow of many levels of experience and it produces nothing but
> neurochemistry and alterations in our ability to access an individual set of
> human experiences. The brain does not produce consciousness, it defines the
> form of many conscious relations.

But you believe that the neurochemicals do things contrary to what
chemists would predict, for example an ion channel opening or closing
without any cause such as a change in transmembrane potential or
ligand concentration. We've talked about this before and it just isn't
consistent with any scientific evidence. You interpret the existence
"spontaneous neural activity" as meaning that something magical like
this happens, but it doesn't mean that at all.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



-- 
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
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