On 13 Sep 2012, at 13:55, Stephen P. King wrote:

Hi benjayk,This is exactly what I have been complaining to Bruno about. Hedoes not see several things that are problematic.1) Godel numberings are not unique. Thus there is no a singleabslute structure of relations, there is an infinity that cannot bereduced.

`On the contrary, I insist on this. That's part of the domain of the 1-`

`indeterminacy, all working coding will do their work, if I dare to`

`say. We already know this, and is part of the problem that we try to`

`just formulate clearly.`

2) the physical implementations of the representations cannot beabstracted away without making the entire result meaningless.

`This is correct for human perception, but with comp the physical`

`implementations that you need at that level are explained by a non`

`physical (and somehow deeper) phenomenon.`

Bruno

On 9/13/2012 6:40 AM, benjayk wrote:Bruno Marchal wrote:Some embeddings that could be represented by this number relations could"prove" utter nonsense. For example, if you interpret 166568 tomean"!=" or "^6" instead of "=>", the whole proof is nonsense.Sure, and if I interpret the soap for a pope, I can be in trouble.Right, but that's exactly what Gödel is doing. 11132 does not mean"="anymore than "soap" means "pope", except if artificially defined.But eventhan the meaning/proof is in the decoding not in 11132 or "soap".If we just take Gödel to make a statement about what encodingstogether withdecoding can express, he is right, we can encope "pope" with "soap"as well,but this shows something about our encodings, not about what we useto doit. Bruno Marchal wrote:That is why we fix a non ambiguous embedding once and for all.How using only arithmetics? Bruno Marchal wrote:Thus Gödel's proof necessarily needs a meta-level,Yes. the point is that the metalevel can be embedded non ambiguously in a faithfull manner in arithmetic. It is the heart of theoretical computer science. You really should study the subject.You should stop studying and start to actually start to question the validity of what you are studying ;)Sorry, I just had to say that, now that you made that remarknumerous times.It is like saying "You should really study the bible to understandwhychristianity is right.".Studying the bible in detail will not reveal the flaw unless youare willingto question it (and then studying it becomes relatively superfluous). Bruno Marchal wrote:I don't see how any explanation of Gödel could even adress the problem.You created a problem which is not there.Nope. You try to talk away a problem that is there. Bruno Marchal wrote:It seems to be very fundamental to the idea of the proof itself, not the proof as such. Maybe you can explain how to solve it?But please don't say that we can embed the process of assigningGödelnumbers in arithmetic itself.? a number like s(s(0))) can have its description, be 2^'s' * 3^(... , which will give a very big number, s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s... (s(s(s(0))))))))))))...))). That correspondence will be defined in term of addition, multiplication and logical symbols, equality.I don't see what your reply has to do with my remark. In fact, itjustdemonstrates that you ignore it. How to do this embedding without ameta-language (like you just used by saying 'have its description'- thereis no such axiom in arithmetic). Bruno Marchal wrote:This would need another non-unique embedding of syntax, hence leading to the same problem (just worse).Not at all. You confuse the embedding and its description of the embedding, and the description of the description, but you get this trivially by using the Gödel number of a Gödel number.Maybe actually show how I am wrong rather than just saying that Iconfuseeverything? Bruno Marchal wrote:For more detail and further points about Gödel you may take a look at this website: http://jamesrmeyer.com/godel_flaw.htmlAnd now you refer to a site pretending having found a flaw inGödel'sproof. (sigh). You could tell me at the start that you believe Gödel was wrong.I tried to be fair and admit that Gödel did prove something (aboutwhatnumbers can express together with a meta-level).If you believe that Gödel proved something about arithmetics asseperateaxiomatic systems, then the site clearly shows numerous criciticalflaws. Itis not pretending anything. It is clearly pointing out where theflaws lie(and similar flaws in other related proofs). I haven't even see anyrealattempt to show how he is wrong. All responses amount to littlemore thandenial or authoritative argument or obfuscaction.The main reason that people don't see the flaw is because theyabstract somuch that they abstract away the error (but also the meaning of theproof)and because they are dogmatic about authorities being right.That's why studying will not help much. It just creates moreabstraction,further hiding the error. benjayk-- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

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