Hi Craig Weinberg 

Fortunately or unfortunately, capitalism is Darwinism, pure and simple.
So it can prepare for a better future, although it can be painful
at present. My own take on this is that there needs to be
a calculus of pleasure and pain. Jeremy Bentham suggested 
perhaps an impfect one.

In lieu of that, I am all for food stamps and safety
nets. 


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/14/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-13, 12:28:09
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?




On Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:33:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg   

The fact is that the only incentive businesses look to is profit. 
So demonizing profit doesn't do any good. 
And urging them to hire workers doesn't work. 



Sounds exactly like cancer. The only incentive cancer looks to is growth.  As 
long as any institution partitions itself off from responsibility to the full 
spectrum of human experience I think it is doomed to be a force for oppression. 
You can tell when this happens because the effect of the institution is 
inverted to its cause. Businesses perpetuate financial bondage rather than 
freedom. Hospitals perpetuate sickness and misery rather than health. Schools 
neutralize intellectual curiosity. Religions foment intolerance and the abuse 
of the innocent. It's inevitable since by definition the first order of 
business for an institution is to ensure its own growth and survival at all 
costs...which becomes the sole purpose forever.

Craig



 Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 
9/13/2012   
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him   
so that everything could function." 
----- Receiving the following content -----   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2012-09-12, 20:03:27 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ? 




On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:32:21 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
Hi Craig Weinberg   

I am intolerant of stupidity and deception, particularly 
when the idea of carbon credits pops up. This suggests that   
"Global warming" is just a method of raising taxes, 
diminishing coal and oil,  and even globally sharing the wealth.   

Thankfully china won't go along with this stupidity. 
It all seems to be politics rather than science.   

I don't know enough about it to say too much about it. I think that the point 
is to make it political so 

that the greatest polluters will have an incentive to pollute less. Otherwise, 
why would they ever reduce 
emissions? Personally I think that the only issue that matters is 
overpopulation. As long as we have 
seven billion people making billions more people, nothing will stop the 
devaluation of they quality of human life, 
and of human lives. Whether it's the threat of running out of oil, food, water, 
or money, it doesn't really matter 
 which comes first. It's like putting more and more fish in an overstocked fish 
tank, the bigger ones just 
eat more and more of the smaller ones while the whole thing fills up with crap. 

Craig 




Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 
9/11/2012   
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him   
so that everything could function." 
----- Receiving the following content -----   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2012-09-11, 00:40:08 
Subject: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ? 


Hi Roger, 

It's ok not to be obsessed with cleaning up the environment, but why be 
intolerant of people who are? Same with people who spend a lot of time talking 
in public about issues of racial discrimination. If you are going to speak and 
act on behalf of millions of people who are not speaking and acting, it is 
understandable that you might also be the type of person who is strongly 
motivated. 

What you don't seem to appreciate is that being able to not have to think about 
race is a luxury that non-whites do not have. That doesn't mean you have to 
make the world fair for everyone, but the least that we who have that luxury 
could do is acknowledge that we have that privilege. Have you ever considered 
what it would be like for you in a world with an alternate history? Where the 
Cherokee Nation developed guns and steel before the Europeans and colonized it 
using Siberian slaves instead? You could listen to descendants of those 
invaders and slavers discuss how the whining of pink people, their scapegoats 
and victims for centuries in a hostile land, is really not their cup of tea.   

Craig 

On Monday, September 10, 2012 7:19:44 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:   
Hi Craig Weinberg   

Not that I am against cleaning up the environment, but I am not 
obsessed with the idea.  Integrating with Nature is also a main principle 
of the Communist Manifesto.   


Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 
9/10/2012   
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him   
so that everything could function." 
----- Receiving the following content -----   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2012-09-09, 16:23:54 
Subject: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ? 




On Sunday, September 9, 2012 2:58:32 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:   
On 9/9/2012 2:21 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 

On Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:41:37 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:   
Hi Craig, 

Why are we even considering the thoughts of paranoids? Are they in control of 
our daily lives? 




Hi Stephen, 

I agree, I was responding to what Roger said about liberals: 

 "ironically and  paradoxically they see the world in terms of race.   
Conservatives attempt to live by facts. I never   
saw racism in what what I wrote until you brought   
the subject up." 

which sounded to me like 'conservatives aren't racist, liberals are', which - 
although conservative thought has some admirable virtues, I can say without 
hesitation that tolerance for racial and gender diversity is not one of them. 
That's why I brought up JBS and KKK, to show the absurdity of that claim, since 
the most racist hate groups are known to be political right wing extremists and 
not left wing extremists.   


HI Craig, 

    The contest of recrimination is not winnable, but let's try for the sake of 
the discussion. 



Personally I don't know of any left wing extremist groups in this country - not 
that there aren't any but even self-proclaimed anarchists seem to stay out of 
trouble. 

    I guess that you have never heard of   

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_First!   

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front 


I had heard of Earth First but not much. Yeah, I think it's fair to call them 
left wing eco-terrorists. Unfortunately the way they are going about it, using 
arson and destruction will only serve to discredit their cause and provide a 
ready excuse for stepping up surveillance and security operations around the 
world. I don't think that mainstream liberals are aware or support groups like 
this though generally. Contrary to the overwhelming drift to the right by 
conservatives, groups like these have not seemed to influence the politics of 
the mainstream (Democrats can't really even be called liberals, more like 
fiscal conservatives who are socially moderate). 
  
3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace 


What do they do that is bad? Do they threaten innocent people? Maybe they are 
over-zealous and unrealistic about ecological priorities but it's a drop in the 
bucket compared to the global machine they are up against. From what I see it 
looks like they mainly are concerned with protecting human beings in general: 
http://yqyq.net/81737-Istoriya_i_dostizheniya_Greenpeace.html   

Certainly they are not racists or bullies of innocent people. 

  

4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_a_Democratic_Society 


SDS lasted from 1960-1969, so it hasn't been relevant for almost 50 years. I 
had a professor who was in SDS. Extremely nice and gentle guy. He said he had a 
metal plate in his skull from the FBI. His class was on revolutionary 
movements, talked about SDS, the IWW and labor unions. He seemed to have a 
mature and reasonable perspective on the 60s 
  


need more? 
  


sure. my point was about racism though. Are there any groups of white racists 
who are liberal?   





In other parts of the world, there are certainly left-wing violent extremists 
but I don't guess that they are racially motivated in particular (unless maybe 
the distribution of wealth and power falls along racial lines in their area). 
What are the left wing presences in the US? Farmers markets? Small 
organizations that try to help people get birth control or protect people from 
being poisoned by industry? 


    It might be helpful if you laid out for us the definition of the terms that 
you are using. What exactly is left-wing and right-wing? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics   

    Why can't we just get along? 


The left wing are those who see themselves as being the people who want to just 
get along or, if politically active, oppose those who prevent us from getting 
along. Left wing means tolerance, which means a certain degree of intolerance 
of intolerance. That's where it gets dicey. 

I'm not sure who the right wing thinks they are. Patriots? Grownups who don't 
like to see people get anything without paying a price? Not sure. 






To my mind, while I can understand why liberals would be criticized as whiny, 
weak, and impractical, I think conservatives who do not understand why they are 
criticized as racist, anti-intellectual bullies are in deep denial or just 
sheltered from other viewpoints. 

Craig 


    From my point of view we need objectivity. 


I'm on board with that.   

Tell me why didn't trickle down economics work? Why did Bush's 8-year 
presidency end in such catastrophic failure? Why haven't the corps making 
record profits behaved as the 'job creators' they are supposed to be? 

Craig 
  

--   
Onward! 

Stephen 

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html 
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