On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 5:28:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
> Bruno and all, 
> I have not infrequently brought up the need for a "self" 
> in your models. Why do you need to include a self or 1p 
> in your models ? 
> There are two ways of looking at something: 
> a) the objective material, which is the raw material 
> without an observer. The impersonal, scientific version. 
> This is just "stuff" and it has no meaning 
> by itself. Peirce called it Firstness. 

This is the problem in my view. Matter isn't firstness, it is secondness or 
really half - of - firstness turned inside out. There needs to be an 
experience which defines anything, as per Berkeley. You can't assume that 
'without an observer' is one of the viable 'ways of looking at something', 
as you have disqualified all ways of looking at anything from the start. 
It's confusing because as individual human beings, we are nested layers 
deep in personal and impersonal interacting levels of perception and 
participation. It's not that our perception creates matter it is that our 
perception of matter comes to us indirectly through the experiences of our 
body. The raw material is experience, not observerless theoretical 
concepts. Experience is concretely real, ideas of objective conditions 
which exist outside of all possibility of experience is ultimately nonsense 
(although seductive nonsense).

> b) a subjective account of the material, which 
> is the meaning of the "stuff". It is the objective 
> material filtered through an individual's consciousness. 
> I think that is somehow related to 1p. It is 
> the "stuff" as experienced, the meaning of the stuff. 
> From a particular point of view, such as an individual 
> monad would perceive. 
> Secondness is the meaning of the experience to the individual, 
> or Firstness from a particular point of view. 
> Thirdness is Secondness expressed to others. 
> I think that looking at the raw stuff without filtering 
> it through an individual's "eyes"-- the objective account-- 
> will not completely tell you how well that raw account 
> emulates life.  You need to 1p filter it to get its meaning. 

The 1p is not the filter, it is the 3p which is a lowest common denominator 
filter that is inter-monadic and virtual. Our 1p is a filter of the 
multitude of sub-personal and super-personal 1p experiences associated with 
our cells, molecules, family, world, etc., but it is not a filter of 3p 
external realities. I'm with Bruno on this as far as matter not being 
primitive but I don't say that it doesn't exist, only that it existence 
isn't as primordial as insistence. Extension supervenes on intention, not 
the other way around.


> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:> 
> 10/2/2012   
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
For more options, visit this group at 

Reply via email to