Hi Craig Weinberg My responses as !!!!!!!!!!!!
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-02, 15:54:01 Subject: Re: The meaning of subjectivity and the importance of self (1p) On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 5:28:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Bruno and all, I have not infrequently brought up the need for a "self" in your models. Why do you need to include a self or 1p in your models ? There are two ways of looking at something: a) the objective material, which is the raw material without an observer. The impersonal, scientific version. This is just "stuff" and it has no meaning by itself. Peirce called it Firstness. CRAIG: This is the problem in my view. Matter isn't firstness, it is secondness or really half - of - firstness turned inside out. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are correct, my statement is wrong. There needs to be an experience which defines anything, as per Berkeley. You can't assume that 'without an observer' is one of the viable 'ways of looking at something', as you have disqualified all ways of looking at anything from the start. It's confusing because as individual human beings, we are nested layers deep in personal and impersonal interacting levels of perception and participation. It's not that our perception creates matter it is that our perception of matter comes to us indirectly through the experiences of our body. The raw material is experience, not observerless theoretical concepts. Experience is concretely real, ideas of objective conditions which exist outside of all possibility of experience is ultimately nonsense (although seductive nonsense). b) a subjective account of the material, which is the meaning of the "stuff". It is the objective material filtered through an individual's consciousness. I think that is somehow related to 1p. It is the "stuff" as experienced, the meaning of the stuff. >From a particular point of view, such as an individual monad would perceive. Secondness is the meaning of the experience to the individual, or Firstness from a particular point of view. Thirdness is Secondness expressed to others. I think that looking at the raw stuff without filtering it through an individual's "eyes"-- the objective account-- will not completely tell you how well that raw account emulates life. You need to 1p filter it to get its meaning. CRAIG : The 1p is not the filter, it is the 3p which is a lowest common denominator filter that is inter-monadic and virtual. Our 1p is a filter of the multitude of sub-personal and super-personal 1p experiences associated with our cells, molecules, family, world, etc., but it is not a filter of 3p external realities. I'm with Bruno on this as far as matter not being primitive but I don't say that it doesn't exist, only that it existence isn't as primordial as insistence. Extension supervenes on intention, not the other way around. Craig !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you like, but my point in using 1p is that there is no such thing as objective meaning. Meaning means meaning to you individually. And of course insistence is more primordial, but I had forgotten that you have to regurgitate how you interpreted something to others to make your interpretation useful. So your 1p meaning is the true meaning as far as you are concerned, but it has to be converted to 3p to be useful right then. On the other hand your 1p interpretation if expresssed mathematicallhy (or digitally, such as your view of a bridge as slightly distorted) may still be useful within the computation. Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 10/2/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/_gs8E0x7aQAJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
